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Unmarked London Mint Type - help needed

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  • Unmarked London Mint Type - help needed

    As I have said before, I am trying hard to make sense of the London unmarked series and this one does not seem to be falling into place. I would be grateful for any help.

    Found in Lincolnshire, UK.

    Obverse C VAL MAXIMIANVS NOB C Laureate, cuirassed bust right

    Reverse GENIO POPULI ROMANI Genius etc, etc.

    Weight 8.1 g. Die diameter 24mm.

    I have come up with the following options:-

    Lyons 17b but not listed for cuirassed bust type

    London 14b but does not seem to be the small head on tall neck style

    London Class II b type 17-22 but not recorded with this long obverse legend

    Nothing else seems to fit unless I have missed something obvious.
    Attached Files
    Lee Toone
    www.hookmoor.com

  • #2
    Lee,
    Based on style and obv legend, I think it belongs to the transition between RIC VI class II and III, dating to 300-303. I think this is the group that RIC VII labels as class IIb (i.e cloest match is RIC 21), but it doesn't really matter seeing as it's unlisted.

    The reasoning is:

    Has to be London not Lyons (or Lyonese celator made for London - class I) based on style.

    Obviously not class IIa based on style - these are the crude very long necked angular ones.

    C VAL MAXIMIANVS obv legend is not listed after class IIa, so your coin belongs to time period shortly after (but not IIa itself, per above) rather than much later.

    From what I've seen the style of IIb is quite close to III. RIC notes lower relief busts, but it's hard if not impossible to guage that from photos. FWIW the only other coin I've seen that I've attributed to class IIb also has the "kinked" laurel ties of your coin, which is also sometimes seen in class IIa; I've not noticed this type of ties in class III, so maybe that is also a general help in dating (requires more data!).

    Ben

    Comment


    • #3
      Ben

      Thanks for that. I was heading for IIb myself, but I'm a bit tentative with this series at the moment.

      I had this one down for RIC VI 14a but am not so sure now. Is it more likely to be RIC VI 20?

      Weight 9.7 g. and die diameter 24 mm.

      I need to spend more time on these but I'm trying to concentrate on my next London list - this is a temporary diversion!

      Best wishes for the festive season,

      Lee
      Attached Files
      Last edited by leetoone; Dec 20, 2008, 08:34 AM.
      Lee Toone
      www.hookmoor.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Having now looked at the Fyfield Hoard plates, my last coin seems to also fall between the styles of class IIa and class IIb types. Again with the longer legend, and the "kinked" laurel ties!

        Lee
        Lee Toone
        www.hookmoor.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Lee,
          I'd tend to go with IIa for that one based on the long neck and angularity. For comparison, here's one that I think is IIb (or is it III?!). I really need to gather a much larger collection of pictures of these to get a better handle on them myself.

          Hope you're gearing up for a happy Christmas yourself. I'm off work now until the new year, so all is good.

          Regards,
          Ben
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • #6
            Ben

            I would go class III for that last one. I have a couple of Galerius that I posted here

            http://www.forumancientcoins.com/boa...?topic=36226.0

            that I think have closely matching styles. So RIC VI 37a for your last posting, I think.

            I do have what I think is a class IIb Constantius that I will try and post over the holiday period. Or maybe I will scan my ten Group I coins and post a pic of the lot. If I do that, it will be in "the other place" because of picture uploading limits.

            Lee
            Lee Toone
            www.hookmoor.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by leetoone View Post
              .......... I had this one down for RIC VI 14a but am not so sure now. Is it more likely to be RIC VI 20? ..........
              Lee -- here are my coins that I have cataloged as RIC VI (Londinium) 14a and 20:


              14a .................................................. .................. 20

              James
              Last edited by jamesicus; Feb 6, 2009, 11:06 AM. Reason: added forgotten word
              James
              Britannic Coinage and the Tetrarchy web site
              Britannic coinage and the Tetrarchy - Annotated Photo Gallery
              Significant Historical Events and Coinage Production Information

              Comment


              • #8
                another example -- different ties

                Hi, for your perusal, here's a twin for your original coin, with very similar style -- except for the straight-(ish) wreath ties.
                Attached Files

                Comment


                • #9
                  one more...

                  Hi, James, thought this was interesting -- this coin sits right between your RIC 20 and Ben's -- longer neck + smaller head than Ben's, not as long as yours:
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RobertB View Post
                    Hi, James, thought this was interesting -- this coin sits right between your RIC 20 and Ben's -- longer neck + smaller head than Ben's, not as long as yours:
                    Thanks Robert. Here is my Specimen (ex. CNG) of RIC VI (Londinium), Group I (iii) Class III -- large, spread bust , almost always cuirassed, in low relief: No. 37a:



                    James
                    James
                    Britannic Coinage and the Tetrarchy web site
                    Britannic coinage and the Tetrarchy - Annotated Photo Gallery
                    Significant Historical Events and Coinage Production Information

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      .......... and here is No. 33, Galerius, of the same series -- RIC VI (Londinium), Group I (iii) Class III:



                      James
                      James
                      Britannic Coinage and the Tetrarchy web site
                      Britannic coinage and the Tetrarchy - Annotated Photo Gallery
                      Significant Historical Events and Coinage Production Information

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by leetoone View Post
                        As I have said before, I am trying hard to make sense of the London unmarked series ..........
                        I have attempted to do this on my page at http://jp29.org/plncmms.htm Lee -- check in particular Footnote [1].

                        James
                        Last edited by jamesicus; Feb 7, 2009, 03:59 AM. Reason: added information
                        James
                        Britannic Coinage and the Tetrarchy web site
                        Britannic coinage and the Tetrarchy - Annotated Photo Gallery
                        Significant Historical Events and Coinage Production Information

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks James.

                          Your page and footnote summary is really useful. I think I now understand the structure proposed by RIC but I sometimes have difficulty in assigning coins within that structure. Some are obvious such as your long necked one above but others I find more difficult.

                          Lee

                          PS Thanks for the additional images Robert. Is it your website I have just discovered at http://www.numisology.com/Londinium.htm ?
                          Lee Toone
                          www.hookmoor.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks, James!

                            Your page is very useful! I've reorganized/reclassified my own reference photos accordingly!

                            Ben

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "PS Thanks for the additional images Robert. Is it your website I have just discovered ..."

                              Yes, my eternally under-construction website. One of these days I'll officially launch it, in the meantime the effort is building character...

                              Comment

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