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  • Easter Island Sestertius?



    Imitation of a sestertius of CLAUDIUS 41-54 AD. Bronze (AE; 32-34mm; 20.87g) uncertain mint and date. TI CLAV[D]IV[S]C]AESAR ... laureate head to right (rude style) Rev. ...TR P IMP... around S C. Very fine/almost very fine. Beautiful light green patina. Very rare.
    Ex Gorny & Mosch 126, 2003 lot 1087.
    No reference found, sorry.

    http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/dieter...?idProduct=994

    Sorry - couldn't help myself

    --Beast
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  • #2
    That's scary from a Vcoins coins dealer! "Unknown mint" : "Billy's basement" is more likely!

    Richard

    PS Crude thought: he looks a little constipated...

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by hydatius View Post
      That's scary from a Vcoins coins dealer
      Richard,

      This is the part I thought was more interesting personally:

      Ex Gorny & Mosch 126, 2003 lot 1087.

      Not that you could look it up on Coin Archives anymore since the change last week....

      --Beast
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      • #4
        Originally posted by BeastCoins View Post
        Richard,

        This is the part I thought was more interesting personally:

        Ex Gorny & Mosch 126, 2003 lot 1087.

        Not that you could look it up on Coin Archives anymore since the change last week....

        --Beast
        Couldn't find it in acsearch.info (what was the original description?) but found instead other weird imitations:
        http://www.acsearch.info/search.html...=1&cng=1&fac=1

        Jérôme

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        • #5
          Jérôme,

          I do not know the original description by G&M. However, I would be very surprised if it was anything close to what it should have read - something like:

          "Claudius, AE Sestertius, Rome mint, Uncertain RIC citation due to poor condition. Uneven patina, chipped on obverse, obverse smoothed and repatinated with design completely retooled, partial legend retooled and may not match original legend."

          It definitely is not imitative and may not even have originally been Claudius. Could possibly have been Tiberius or Augustus or Agrippina for that matter. The current dealer is selling it as it was most likely described in the auction or on the flip tag. That still doesn't mean it's anywhere near what it really is. I would also like to point out it has already been sold (~$288.00). I would also like to point out I reserve the right to be completely wrong as well. I have been in the past, but if this really is an authentic ancient original and untouched imitation sestertius of Claudius, then I would like to see something similar to compare.

          --Beast
          Last edited by BeastCoins; Jul 20, 2009, 02:35 PM.
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          • #6
            Folks,

            By the way, I am somewhat familiar with the imitative types of Claudius asses. I've had some and have another in stock waiting to be photographed.



            Claudius, AE As, c.46-54, British Imitation (?) of Rome mint
            TI CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG P M TR P IMP P P
            Bare head left
            LIBERTAS-AVGSTA (sic)
            Libertas standing facing, head right, pileus in right hand, left hand extended
            S | C across fields
            RIC I, 113 for type

            Note how it is stylistically similar to Rome mint specimens, as one would expect.

            --Beast
            Last edited by BeastCoins; Jul 20, 2009, 02:34 PM.
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            • #7
              Why is it not an imitative issue? It's not tooled, the patina is authentic (at least it looks OK in the photo as the chip looks real). Flan looks ancient to me. I agree it's not your standard British or Spanish imitation, but I think it's ancient and original. What else would you suggest it is?

              Barry Murphy

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              • #8
                Yes I agree, ancient coin, authentic patina; the style is very weird, looks like coming from the celtic tribes of the Danube, definitively not from the West (especially Gaul or Spain). Look e.g. here: http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=154721 , Lanz classifies it as a celtic coin!

                Jérôme

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by BeastCoins View Post
                  Folks,

                  Note how it is stylistically similar to Rome mint specimens, as one would expect.

                  --Beast
                  I'm not certain this is a reasonable expectation. Sure, counterfeiters do the best they can, but in an empire-wide "small-change" shortage lasting more than a decade, copies of copies of copies can become quite bizarre and the public adjusts. It's not a matter of anyone being "fooled". It's simple pragmatism. You have to make change with something. Compare the range on Warren Esty's page:

                  http://esty.ancients.info/imit/imitclaudius.html

                  In my experience, the vast majority of British copies are ases of the Minerva type, ranging from fine copies at near-full module to Picasso-esque miniatures, sometimes weighing only 2 or 3 gms. The sestertii seem to come mostly from Italy (often with yellowish "Tiber" patinas) and from the Balkans. The deep green patina suggests the Balkans.

                  It's a little concerning to me that the portrait is so sharp and angular (as might be the result of crude tooling work) but as Barry notes, the patina looks genuine.
                  Last edited by dltcoins; Jul 20, 2009, 08:30 PM.
                  David L. Tranbarger Rare Coins LLC
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bpmurphy View Post
                    Why is it not an imitative issue? It's not tooled, the patina is authentic (at least it looks OK in the photo as the chip looks real). Flan looks ancient to me. I agree it's not your standard British or Spanish imitation, but I think it's ancient and original. What else would you suggest it is?

                    Barry Murphy
                    Well o.k. then. Like I said, I reserve the right to be wrong The whole reason I brought it up in the first place is because of the lesson I learn a few years ago about all of the retooled and repatinated Bosporus coinage and this one struck me to be similarly re-engraved. To me, the patina on the obverse vs. the reverse looks very different. Granted, it doesn't look repatinated, or at least no job I've ever run across, but the texture on the two sides just don't look the same to me. It's possible one side simply survived better.

                    The flan does look fine to me, but the lettering looks suspiciously uneven for wear/strike. Again, this could be explained by an uneven strike, but a few letter look too sharp to me as compared to the rest of the coin.

                    The portrait looks completely foreign, but, as is possible with imitative types, it could be from some celator who engraved faces flatly. Heck, I have some flat-faced Constantines in my own collection.



                    Undetermined, AE3, Siscia Imitative Type
                    VVPOVP-VPOVVVOVHPV
                    High-crested helmet, three vertical pellets in crossbar, crescents on helmet fields, cuirassed bust right
                    POVDP-VOV-OPVBHP
                    Two Victories standing, facing each other and holding a shield inscribed IVB / OO / OIO on altar with X and pellets in the diagonals pattern
                    OAIA (?) in exergue
                    17mm x 18mm, 2.03g
                    Ex Steve Santore Collection, January 2006

                    So, I guess the jury finds it to be an ancient forgery. That's cool and whomever bought it got a bargain in that case. Sure looks weird to me!

                    --Beast
                    Last edited by BeastCoins; Jul 20, 2009, 05:51 PM.
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                    • #11
                      How about a different question - has anyone put together a webpage on imitative sestertii? I think this is the first one I've ever seen for sale. I had a neat dupondius once upon a time...



                      Celtic Imitative Issue of Postumus, AE Dupondius, 260-273 for reign of Postumus, Gallic mint?
                      ...CVS P AVG
                      Radiate, draped bust right, four-spoked wheel behind
                      Quasi-Greek script
                      Galley sailing left, Victory on prow, center mast, waves below
                      22mm x 24mm, 8.80g
                      RIC V, Part II, 206-209 for type with LAETITIA AVG legend (and variants)
                      Ex Tom Vossen, VCoins, May 2006 - photo courtesy of Tom Vossen

                      Note from Chris Rudd, Celtic expert, June 2006: "The same Celtic tribes were still around and still copying Roman coins when they felt like it. I agree that this piece looks very Celtic in style."

                      --Beast
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                      • #12
                        For a few examples of other imitative sestertii and a good overview of early imperial imitations as a phenomenon, have a look at Warren Esty's barbarous pages referenced above.

                        btw, Zach, as I mentioned above, I share your concerns about the sharpness of the portrait on the ex-Gorny Claudius relative to the rest of the coin. I'd like to see it in hand. My point was that the portrait style is not outside the range of possibility. Here's an example of a more faithful sestertius imitation I bought from Barry via Vauctions a couple of years ago:

                        Last edited by dltcoins; Jul 20, 2009, 07:12 PM.
                        David L. Tranbarger Rare Coins LLC
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                        • #13
                          second exemplar

                          Hello, I know a second exemplar of this coin, from the same dies. It is said to be found in nothern France, in Amiens area.

                          François

                          Originally posted by BeastCoins View Post
                          How about a different question - has anyone put together a webpage on imitative sestertii? I think this is the first one I've ever seen for sale. I had a neat dupondius once upon a time...



                          Celtic Imitative Issue of Postumus, AE Dupondius, 260-273 for reign of Postumus, Gallic mint?
                          ...CVS P AVG
                          Radiate, draped bust right, four-spoked wheel behind
                          Quasi-Greek script
                          Galley sailing left, Victory on prow, center mast, waves below
                          22mm x 24mm, 8.80g
                          RIC V, Part II, 206-209 for type with LAETITIA AVG legend (and variants)
                          Ex Tom Vossen, VCoins, May 2006 - photo courtesy of Tom Vossen

                          Note from Chris Rudd, Celtic expert, June 2006: "The same Celtic tribes were still around and still copying Roman coins when they felt like it. I agree that this piece looks very Celtic in style."

                          --Beast
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