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  • Fake Athenian Dekadrachm

    Dear List,


    Let me tell you the real story about the Baldwin Athenian Dekadrachm.

    Apart from the Elmali-hoard and the Carchemish-hoard, supposedly three
    Athenian Dekadrachms were found separately, two in Syria and one in
    Egypt. These Dekas were showed secretely to the British Museum (say
    cheese Andrew Meadows) for authentication. One of the three was the
    Deka currently offered by Baldwin. After this, the coin was offered
    for sale in London but nobody dared to touch it after the Elmali-
    debacle.

    Apart from this, some people doubted the coin. The low relief of the
    obverse was a bad sign. But after a lot of discussions, the coin was
    generally accepted as real. The theory made was that this Deka was
    part of a so-called third group (see description catalogue Baldwin).
    At this very moment, Ute Wartenberg and her team are preparing an
    article about this theory...

    The coin was offered to Baldwin by the Syrian dealer Haid Kaysoun
    though Baldwin states that the coin comes from an Austrian collection
    (gimme a break).

    And now the real story.

    The coin is FAKE!!!!
    The doubts in the beginning were right!
    As a matter a fact, the fake was made by the guy who did many of the
    British Museum forgeries back in the early nineties...
    The winner is: Giacomo from Sicily...
    I have one of these guys on tape, stating that he was behind it.

    More news to follow.

    Regards,

    Arthur
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Interesting. At least we're naming names, which can then be confirmed. I suspect, however, that short of you posting an electronic version of the audio confession there will be reactionary push-back on the claims.

    It is standard scientific method to seek to test a theory or claim against a null hypothesis, so in effect one is constrained to either rejecting the null (i.e., tentative evidence for the hypothesized relationship) or "failing to reject" the null (i.e., lack of evidence to support hypothesized relationship).

    When dealing with coins of such potential importance and cost (i.e., > $200K), it might be prudent to argue that the null state should be one of fakery. Therefore, it is the burden of those making claims of authenticity to provide evidence supporting a claim that the "null is false." Whether this rephrasing of burden holds for all ancients is probably not appropriate, but I could see where one could use the prior probabilities of fakes in a certain coin type and use this to determine which way the burden equation should be shifted.

    Flame away...

    Jeff

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by cogito View Post
      Interesting. At least we're naming names, which can then be confirmed. I suspect, however, that short of you posting an electronic version of the audio confession there will be reactionary push-back on the claims.

      It is standard scientific method to seek to test a theory or claim against a null hypothesis, so in effect one is constrained to either rejecting the null (i.e., tentative evidence for the hypothesized relationship) or "failing to reject" the null (i.e., lack of evidence to support hypothesized relationship).

      When dealing with coins of such potential importance and cost (i.e., > $200K), it might be prudent to argue that the null state should be one of fakery. Therefore, it is the burden of those making claims of authenticity to provide evidence supporting a claim that the "null is false." Whether this rephrasing of burden holds for all ancients is probably not appropriate, but I could see where one could use the prior probabilities of fakes in a certain coin type and use this to determine which way the burden equation should be shifted.

      Flame away...

      Jeff

      Gee whiz, you just made my head hurt.

      I will play it safe and simply retract my bid on the coin.
      .
      .
      "When you are in Rome live in the Roman style; when you are elsewhere live as they live elsewhere" St. Ambrose (340-397) to St. Augustine.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 4to2centophilia View Post
        Gee whiz, you just made my head hurt.
        Can you imagine mine, as English is not my Mother language

        Comment


        • #5
          I met Andrew (curator BM) and he is indeed an expert.
          He was the one who initially condemned the coin but after the green light of Fischer-Bosschert, he accepted it for real.
          Never change your first impression Andrew!

          Art

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by cogito View Post
            Interesting. At least we're naming names, which can then be confirmed.
            You have a bad memory...
            In the article in which I unmasked the other fake Deka (CNG,HJB,Kovacs) I gave all the names and all the details.
            Btw, of course I will not reveal the tape. Instead we will wait for Meadows to tell here that I am right that he condemned the coin.

            Regards,

            Art

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Roma_Orbis View Post
              Can you imagine mine, as English is not my Mother language

              I THOUGHT it was mine.
              .
              .
              "When you are in Rome live in the Roman style; when you are elsewhere live as they live elsewhere" St. Ambrose (340-397) to St. Augustine.

              Comment


              • #8
                Sorry. I was in between research manuscript preparation and forgot to turn off my jargon sensor.

                Null hypotheses can be varied, but on a very basic level it could be something as simple as:

                "A" equals "B"

                In which case, the testable hypothesis could be:

                "A" does not equal "B"

                ------------------

                If this this simple and testable logic statement is translated to ancient coins and fakes, then the null ("A" equals "B") would be that the coin "A" is fake "B". The testable hypothesis ("A" does not equal "B"), in turn, would be the coin "A" is not a fake "B".

                The key is that with high-end, important coins where the probability of fakery is high, evidence should be accumulated and described to support authenticity not fakery. If such evidence is not forthcoming or does not supercede evidence of fakery, then the null hypothesis ("A" equals "B"; coin "A" is fake "B") cannot be rejected.

                Not sure if I helped or hurt with this explanation...

                Jeff

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by cogito View Post
                  Sorry. I was in between research manuscript preparation and forgot to turn off my jargon sensor.

                  Null hypotheses can be varied, but on a very basic level it could be something as simple as:

                  "A" equals "B"

                  In which case, the testable hypothesis could be:

                  "A" does not equal "B"

                  ------------------

                  If this this simple and testable logic statement is translated to ancient coins and fakes, then the null ("A" equals "B") would be that the coin "A" is fake "B". The testable hypothesis ("A" does not equal "B"), in turn, would be the coin "A" is not a fake "B".

                  The key is that with high-end, important coins where the probability of fakery is high, evidence should be accumulated and described to support authenticity not fakery. If such evidence is not forthcoming or does not supercede evidence of fakery, then the null hypothesis ("A" equals "B"; coin "A" is fake "B") cannot be rejected.

                  Not sure if I helped or hurt with this explanation...

                  Jeff

                  The pain is too great.............I just comitted suicide.
                  .
                  .
                  "When you are in Rome live in the Roman style; when you are elsewhere live as they live elsewhere" St. Ambrose (340-397) to St. Augustine.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'll be sure to attend your estate sale and take those worthless coins off your family's hands.

                    Jeff

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We were doing these types of problems in probability and statistics class about 2 semesters ago. The problem is that 5 minutes after I walked out of the final, I forgot everything I knew

                      Voz

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cogito View Post
                        I'll be sure to attend your estate sale and take those worthless coins off your family's hands.

                        Jeff
                        They probably are worthless, I never did that Null thingy to them that you keep talking about.

                        BR

                        Mark (from the spirit world)
                        .
                        .
                        "When you are in Rome live in the Roman style; when you are elsewhere live as they live elsewhere" St. Ambrose (340-397) to St. Augustine.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Jeff,

                          "The key is that with high-end, important coins where the probability of fakery is high"

                          This isn't true and such statements are careless.

                          Art,

                          "Btw, of course I will not reveal the tape"

                          What's new? Another hearsay story with no evidence and no one willing to back up your story. Give us a break Art. And why can't Andrew Meadows change his mind? You changed your mind on this coin, your informers originally claiming it was from the Carchemish hoard now saying it's fake. Is it stolen, fake or none of the above? I guess it depends on which informers you're listening to that day. Maybe some of your informers have their own agenda and you're just their dupe. If you want anyone to believe you Art, you need more proof.

                          I haven't seen the catalog or the coin yet so I can't comment on the Dekadrachm and since it's not a coin I'll be bidding on I really don't care and probabaly won't spend too much time looking at it. I am getting a little tired of these unsubstantiated posts claiming such and such is fake or stolen because Mr. X told me so. I haven't moderated this thread, in fact I haven't moderated any of your posts Art, but this National Enquirer journalism is starting to wear on my nerves a bit. There are plenty of places where your sensationalistic stories will get lots of coverage. I'd like to see us keep ancient.info out of the gutter. "Mr. X told me it was fake and I have a secret audio tape" is just grandstanding. You can do better than that Art.

                          Barry Murphy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            While I'm at it Art, you never did reply to my request in the thread about the BOC's. Post images (your own images) of the fakes in your collection that were in the BOC. You claimed to have found three, oh wait, you found another, four coins in your collection that were in the BOC, sold to you by reputable dealers. Since most people still don't have access to the BOC's you should publish your fakes so others don't get stuck with them.

                            You weren't just blowing hot air were you Art? You do have photos?

                            Barry

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What do you mean by hearsay Barry?
                              I was the one who revealed the Carchemish-hoard. Was I wrong with that?
                              I was the one who revealed that the CNG-Deka (also a fake by Giacomo), which was sold at HJB/Freeman auction, is considered a fake by almost all experts AND the ISBCC. Was I wrong with that?
                              It seems that you are not well informed on this coin Barry. More then one expert said that this coin is a pure fake.

                              Art

                              Comment

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