Questionable Venetian Coins

Here's an example that I own that is similar to the other examples shown here -- except that there are no striations in the fields, nor evidence of clipping. To me this looks entirely like a well-struck old gold coin (with a bit of a flan crack), with some coppery toning in the devices, and fields that have been lightly wiped at some point. Weight is 3.5g. I have a hard time believing this isn't solid gold.

I've had this coin about 6 years, BTW, since early 2004. Zach, I'll be happy to lend it to you if you want to examine it in person, just let me know off-line.



I suppose if one IS going to get stuck with a fake, it may as well be one made from solid gold. There's a joke somewhere in there about silver linings...

--Robert

[BeastCoins]

Robert,

Very interesting. I guess that pushes the known release date back to 2004? I can only imagine how many of these are really out there now, considering the silver examples I handled were probably recently made. Funny thing too - the gold pieces, from those who have handled them, all describe them as looking like actual gold, which they may be. And the silver ones I've had, oddly enough, do look like silver with some gilding. Maybe these were originally intended for high-end jewelry and needed to be of precious metal?

--Zach

Wouldn't it be possible that older coins are legit and were the basis for the fake dies? The fields on my coin are quite different from the other coins that are purported to be fakes.

Compare my coin to the Cayon coin -- the two sets of obverse/reverse dies are clearly the same -- if you look closely at my coin in hand, you can even see the same die break that runs outside the M.VEN on the Cayon example -- but the fields are completely different. Also, notice that there is no pellet border on the Cayon coin? There are places in the legend where there is clearly room on the Cayon coin where there should be pellets -- outside DVCAT, VENERIO, & VENETI -- and in these places you can see pellets on my coin, but not Cayon's, which seems really odd, given how otherwise identical the dies appear.

To me, that suggests that the die from the Cayon coin was copied from a legit coin whose die also struck my coin?

just re-read the older posts and saw that you did note the missing pellets, so apologize for missing that.

next time I go to a coin show I'll bring it with me and see if I can get some more opinions based on actually looking at the coin.

[BeastCoins]

Robert, I would be interested to hear what other dealers think of it in hand.

Thanks!

--Zach

[wartax]

I am glad to see these dangerous counterfeits exposed more fully; I joined this list just to make these comments. They began appearing about 6 years or so ago, and have been sold in auctions of the most careful and reputable dealers. I bought one on eBay in 2005 or 2006, only to see an exact duplicate--down to strike and centering--less than a year later.

As mentioned, the most obvious characteristic is the lack of beads of the top of Christ's nimbus (I think that the original coin must have been pierced there, and the forger was unsure of his ability to re-engrave the beads properly). Though they appear to be of pure gold and are of correct weight, they are slightly thinner than originals and larger in diameter. The S in SIT is open at the top, and the first S in ISTE is connected to the rim by a die break. On the obverse, while the head of the doge is fully struck, that of St. Mark is not, with the left eye weak. There is a flaw above O in ANTO, making the ' look like a circle.

Finally, the appearance of silver strikings/pressure casts is conclusive proof that these are modern fakes, since no such "silver ducats" were ever issued by Venice--whose coins have been thoroughly cataloged for over a century.

[wartax]

Forgot to mention another characteristic seen on some (maybe not all) of these--a horizontal flaw to the left of the base of the pole holding the banner of Venice.

[wartax]

The coin imaged by europa is an authentic Venetian ducat of doge Pasquale Malipiero, 1457-1462. The Inscription reads PA.MARIPET. See Biaggi and CNI vol. VIII.

[BeastCoins]

Thank you wartax for your comments and for the attribution of europa's ducat! No wonder I could not figure it out - Paolucci has a page for it (p.42) but no descriptions or any information about the doge whatsoever. Paolucci lists the ducat as rarity= 1 (scarce)

Best regards,

--Beast