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Old May 16, 2007, 09:14 PM   #31
cogito
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I wouldn't dare profess to hold all the answers, but I guess competitive collecting could have some genesis in the adaptive need to gather resources to perpetuate one's genetic material. For our distant ancestors, it is likely that those who gathered more were more likely to survive the winter and support more offspring.

On your second point, I know plenty of collectors who spend considerable time with their collections after acquisition. Thankfully, it is these individuals who tend to contribute most to the knowledge base. Most of us, I suspect, collect in fits and starts and follow a cyclical pattern of periods of acquisition followed by periods of observation and cataloging. Speaking for myself, I tend to focus on those pieces that require some measure of detective work or investigation. While I find acquiring pieces to be very rewarding, the greater reward rests in learning about the coins and the associated history of the material.

Jeff
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Old May 16, 2007, 10:18 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by 4to2centophilia View Post
Happy B-Day old man.

Mark
Thank you. That gets thrown on the scale along with "combativeness, defensiveness, and self agrandizing." <g>
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Old May 16, 2007, 10:55 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by cogito View Post
I wouldn't dare profess to hold all the answers, but I guess competitive collecting could have some genesis in the adaptive need to gather resources to perpetuate one's genetic material. For our distant ancestors, it is likely that those who gathered more were more likely to survive the winter and support more offspring.

On your second point, I know plenty of collectors who spend considerable time with their collections after acquisition. Thankfully, it is these individuals who tend to contribute most to the knowledge base. Most of us, I suspect, collect in fits and starts and follow a cyclical pattern of periods of acquisition followed by periods of observation and cataloging. Speaking for myself, I tend to focus on those pieces that require some measure of detective work or investigation. While I find acquiring pieces to be very rewarding, the greater reward rests in learning about the coins and the associated history of the material.

Jeff
The biology of collecting that you're exploring here is fascinating stuff. I like to delve deep into particular coin series, and into what drives me to delve deep into particular coin series. <g> For me, too, exploring the history, mythology, aesthetics, metrology, and so on is just as rewarding as the hunt, the kill, and the gloat, probably more so. I get as much or more of a kick out of acquiring knowledge as acquiring coins. For me, I think, the main motivation isn't so much impressing others as impressing myself.

I wonder though if the urge to acquire/collect/hoard has the same biological basis as the urge to categorize/systematize. I see the former as based on the primordial need to stock up, for the winter or a siege, whereas the latter may be based on the urge to make sense of, to construct a world or environment that's understandable and ultimately controllable.

I agree that it's only when these tendencies, which drive us to build and learn about our coin collections, interfere with other aspects of our lives that they become maladaptive rather than adaptive.
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Old May 17, 2007, 02:39 AM   #34
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'Serial collecting is not uncommon as these individuals (myself included) move on from one topic of interest to another'

I think everyone collects something just not always obvious. For most, once you have covered the basics of what you need (and needs are many and diverse and subjective), you have a choice of laying back and relaxing (and this is relative) or moving on to something else. I suspect that people have a tendancy, whilst they are alive and kicking, to always move on and collect something to a greater or lesser degree.

I think it all comes back to 'who am I? what am I doing here? Is there a God?' etcetc. It fufills us to have things, know things and be accepted, to 'fit in'. If you have a special, usually expensive (and thus exclusive) collection, all the better.

So its all about self-worth, we just want to be loved!

Mark - you see, so simple

Brgds

Alex
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Old May 17, 2007, 05:32 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexB View Post
I think everyone collects something just not always obvious. For most, once you have covered the basics of what you need (and needs are many and diverse and subjective), you have a choice of laying back and relaxing (and this is relative) or moving on to something else. I suspect that people have a tendancy, whilst they are alive and kicking, to always move on and collect something to a greater or lesser degree.

I think it all comes back to 'who am I? what am I doing here? Is there a God?' etcetc. It fufills us to have things, know things and be accepted, to 'fit in'. If you have a special, usually expensive (and thus exclusive) collection, all the better.

So its all about self-worth, we just want to be loved!

Mark - you see, so simple

Brgds

Alex

Jeff...........I so enjoyed talking to you, sob, sob, but your most recent posts just reconfirm my earlier post. All those years at a university have taken you beyond my limited conversational abilities.

Reid.......I am sneaking up on you. Getting old is fun.......for whom I don;t know.

Zach...........find a new hobby. After three blown lumbar disks and now 2 blown cervical disks, I am thinking there are safer hobbies.

Dear Alex. What you are describing sounds very much like Maslows Hierarchy of needs. I will post a link to a fairly high level and short overview. For those of you who like pictures, I have included the pyramid.

http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/...tip/maslow.htm


You will see that most of us have made it to stage 4 (or it comforts me to think so). If you are a little less a fan of Skinner et al (as Jeff seems to be) you can see that insteaad of being a sophisticated squirrel hoarding coins, cars and whatever, you/we are actually on a path to self actualization. It reminds me of a type of "one lifetime" form of Buddhism (replace self actualization with Nirvanna and skip the rebirths).

It comforts me to think that I am on a greater journey than being a reactive creature at the mercy of biochemical pathways. Doesn't mean I am right, but it comforts me.

I will stop here because I need to post my new coin to my gallery so I know I have more of these little pieces of metal and hopefully generate some envy and thereby prestige.

I also hope my long post has given you the impression that I know alot of things and also reinforces this sense of respect and admiration.

Off to collect acorns and hide from the hawks.

BR

Mark
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Old May 17, 2007, 07:01 AM   #36
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This is off topic for the direction this thread has taken (though it does relate somewhat to the original posting): has anyone noticed that auction houses are starting to boost their cut? I've noticed that the buyer's premium is creeping up to 16.5% and even 20% in some cases and consignors are having to pay 15 to 20% as well. All that adds to inceased prices for everyone.

Richard
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Old May 17, 2007, 07:08 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by hydatius View Post
This is off topic for the direction this thread has taken (though it does relate somewhat to the original posting): has anyone noticed that auction houses are starting to boost their cut? I've noticed that the buyer's premium is creeping up to 16.5% and even 20% in some cases and consignors are having to pay 15 to 20% as well. All that adds to inceased prices for everyone.

Richard
Topic? What topic?

Yes, I have noticed. Apparently they are entering the Sotheby's/Christies area of commissions.

But you know..........all that photography, cataloguing and those fancy auction venues comes with a price.....................yeah right.

Mark
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Old May 17, 2007, 07:29 AM   #38
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Yes, welcome to the last phases of the bull market. Prices up, extreme competition, manic buying - bubbletime.

I give it a year though may last post Olympics 2008...and then, the larger the bubble the longer the pain.

BTW the best coins will still be highly prized/priced - why? because the money that buys them will be largely intact even after a blow-up.

Enjoy!

Brgds

Alex
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Old May 17, 2007, 07:30 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4to2centophilia View Post
I will stop here because I need to post my new coin to my gallery so I know I have more of these little pieces of metal and hopefully generate some envy and thereby prestige.

I also hope my long post has given you the impression that I know alot of things and also reinforces this sense of respect and admiration.

Off to collect acorns and hide from the hawks.
These are all interesting takes. I also tend to think, however, that markets for most luxury goods are built upon the manipulation of consumers. There is a distinction, let's call it a distinction between real and perceived value, that backers of luxury products are trying to pretend isn't there. To use an out-of-context example: diamonds.

Diamonds are these nice little rocks that sparkle. People notice them and see them sparkle. People know they are diamonds. They know you have diamonds. They know you are special.

However, today, there are imitation diamonds that sparkle and people see them and see them sparkle. And they don't know if they are diamonds or not, without scientific equipment, which they never have. They suepect you have diamonds. They suspect you are special.

But you know you are not special if you have fake diamonds (whereas you know you are special if you have real ones), so you must have real diamonds. Fake diamonds will not do. [Well, for me, no diamonds will do just fine, but let's continue].

Of course, imitation diamonds are a big problem for the diamond industry. So, somehow, they have convinced people that there is something more to diamonds than: (1) how they sparkle; and (2) whether people know they are diamonds. They have tied real diamonds to a positive sense of self-worth, and fake diamonds to a neative sense of self-worth. And it is purely internal, because no one else can tell.

What is the real value here? What is the perceived value? And how has an industry been able to largely defeat their competition by internalizing a rejection of something as a "fake" when an "authentic" one is nothing more than a sparkly rock? And what lessons are there for the rest of us in this example?

I think, to a certain extent, the ancient coin market is being similarly manipulated. Coins that are the "finest known," that are "unpublished," that have the allure of gold, medallions that are a little bit bigger than a sestertius but are rare, etc. It could as easily have been holed coins and countermarks (maybe not, but you get the point).

So, I think it is fair to question the current pricing system and not to assume that prices are necessarily appropriate. Whether the market is being manipulated overtly, or whether it is human nature, isn't clear. Even less clear is whether there is something wrong with it. But it is interesting to think that so much of what people do may be driven by deeper, undetected desires, and encouraging to think that exploration of them might change habits and lead to better results.

[Ok, now stop buying medallions so I can buy them all!]

Dan
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Old May 17, 2007, 07:32 AM   #40
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Dear Mark

I didnt realise I was in that league. Maybe I could start some kind of university of life.

Alex

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4to2centophilia View Post
Jeff...........I so enjoyed talking to you, sob, sob, but your most recent posts just reconfirm my earlier post. All those years at a university have taken you beyond my limited conversational abilities.

Reid.......I am sneaking up on you. Getting old is fun.......for whom I don;t know.

Zach...........find a new hobby. After three blown lumbar disks and now 2 blown cervical disks, I am thinking there are safer hobbies.

Dear Alex. What you are describing sounds very much like Maslows Hierarchy of needs. I will post a link to a fairly high level and short overview. For those of you who like pictures, I have included the pyramid.

http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/...tip/maslow.htm


You will see that most of us have made it to stage 4 (or it comforts me to think so). If you are a little less a fan of Skinner et al (as Jeff seems to be) you can see that insteaad of being a sophisticated squirrel hoarding coins, cars and whatever, you/we are actually on a path to self actualization. It reminds me of a type of "one lifetime" form of Buddhism (replace self actualization with Nirvanna and skip the rebirths).

It comforts me to think that I am on a greater journey than being a reactive creature at the mercy of biochemical pathways. Doesn't mean I am right, but it comforts me.

I will stop here because I need to post my new coin to my gallery so I know I have more of these little pieces of metal and hopefully generate some envy and thereby prestige.

I also hope my long post has given you the impression that I know alot of things and also reinforces this sense of respect and admiration.

Off to collect acorns and hide from the hawks.

BR

Mark
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Old May 17, 2007, 07:34 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by AlexB View Post
Yes, welcome to the last phases of the bull market. Prices up, extreme competition, manic buying - bubbletime.

I give it a year though may last post Olympics 2008...and then, the larger the bubble the longer the pain.

BTW the best coins will still be highly prized/priced - why? because the money that buys them will be largely intact even after a blow-up.

Enjoy!

Brgds

Alex
I saw a preso on the web regarding Asian markets, presented by some HK based individual. Sound familiar???

Tell me when to roll out of my International and domestic funds and into bonds. I would like to retire before they bury me.


Don't even get me started on diamonds. The most expensive, manipulated piece of rock on earth.

Ciao

mark
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Old May 17, 2007, 07:38 AM   #42
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Interesting. Too much liquidity around, people dont know where to spend it. Dont knock it too much, it helps all of us to keep employed and demand large payrises. Usually inflation is the killer to all this but this time we have mobility of workforce, certainly in Europe. US is different - you have illegals as I understand it (I may be wrong). Problem is that this wont last forever, at least not in the context of a virtuos circle for all.

Isnt this how Rome lost it all?

Brgds

Alex

Quote:
Originally Posted by caesavg View Post
These are all interesting takes. I also tend to think, however, that markets for most luxury goods are built upon the manipulation of consumers. There is a distinction, let's call it a distinction between real and perceived value, that backers of luxury products are trying to pretend isn't there. To use an out-of-context example: diamonds.

Diamonds are these nice little rocks that sparkle. People notice them and see them sparkle. People know they are diamonds. They know you have diamonds. They know you are special.

However, today, there are imitation diamonds that sparkle and people see them and see them sparkle. And they don't know if they are diamonds or not, without scientific equipment, which they never have. They suepect you have diamonds. They suspect you are special.

But you know you are not special if you have fake diamonds (whereas you know you are special if you have real ones), so you must have real diamonds. Fake diamonds will not do. [Well, for me, no diamonds will do just fine, but let's continue].

Of course, imitation diamonds are a big problem for the diamond industry. So, somehow, they have convinced people that there is something more to diamonds than: (1) how they sparkle; and (2) whether people know they are diamonds. They have tied real diamonds to a positive sense of self-worth, and fake diamonds to a neative sense of self-worth. And it is purely internal, because no one else can tell.

What is the real value here? What is the perceived value? And how has an industry been able to largely defeat their competition by internalizing a rejection of something as a "fake" when an "authentic" one is nothing more than a sparkly rock? And what lessons are there for the rest of us in this example?

I think, to a certain extent, the ancient coin market is being similarly manipulated. Coins that are the "finest known," that are "unpublished," that have the allure of gold, medallions that are a little bit bigger than a sestertius but are rare, etc. It could as easily have been holed coins and countermarks (maybe not, but you get the point).

So, I think it is fair to question the current pricing system and not to assume that prices are necessarily appropriate. Whether the market is being manipulated overtly, or whether it is human nature, isn't clear. Even less clear is whether there is something wrong with it. But it is interesting to think that so much of what people do may be driven by deeper, undetected desires, and encouraging to think that exploration of them might change habits and lead to better results.

[Ok, now stop buying medallions so I can buy them all!]

Dan
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Old May 17, 2007, 08:46 AM   #43
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Oh, Mark. Don't you realize that my discussion was an "envy" surrogate to make up for the lack of similarly fabulous new coins?

Alex, while you have some of Maslow covered, I suspect you are more Rogerian. Just remember to repeat back what people say and provide calm acceptance...something I suspect you already do when working with monied clients.

Jeff
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Old May 17, 2007, 08:07 PM   #44
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Actually I tend to argue with most of them which seems odd in the short-term but works well in the longer-term.

Alex

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Oh, Mark. Don't you realize that my discussion was an "envy" surrogate to make up for the lack of similarly fabulous new coins?

Alex, while you have some of Maslow covered, I suspect you are more Rogerian. Just remember to repeat back what people say and provide calm acceptance...something I suspect you already do when working with monied clients.

Jeff
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Old May 18, 2007, 07:41 AM   #45
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Folks,

Just to keep all of our discussions in perspective with respect to new finds and the subsequent marketing affecting prices, I would like to cite two examples outside of our area of collecting to keep in mind this can happen to medieval and modern coins as well as ours.

In a series of sales from 1971-1980, the US Government began selling off hoards of Carson City and other Morgan dollars it found in the treasury vaults, which were the result of the suspension of trade of silver certificates for silver dollars. The release of this monster volume of mint condition dollars dramatically affected the value of all of the other pieces in the market overall for which there were example date/mints.

http://www.coinresource.com/articles/gsa.htm

And just today, the Odyssey announced a shipwreck recovery of a staggering 500,000 coins! Just think of the marketing we will be seeing on these.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070518/.../treasure_ship

Will these affect the prices of coins already in the market? Only time will tell. It may be another situation where more collectors can get in the market for certain dates and types like the recovery of the SS Brother Johnathan did for US gold collectors.

--Zach Beasley
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