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Authenticity Distinguishing between genuine and fake objects.

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Old Aug 17, 2006, 02:05 PM   #1
4to2centophilia
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Philip II left facing rider. Lifetime

Opinions please. The pitting on the reverse has me a bit concerned.

Tetradrachm 355-348 BC. 14,37 g. Head of Zeus, laureate, to right / King wearing kausia and chlamys and raising r. hand in salute, riding left; below, protome of pegsos, before bow. LeRider 122., VF-EF, Rs. Schrtlf.

Thanks

Mark
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Old Aug 17, 2006, 04:54 PM   #2
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There are a few areas of die breakage on the reverse, which tends to lend towards authenticity. Wear at the high points and toning deep in the low areas is encouraging. It could be that the "pits" are specks of horn silver or the result of a chemical clean.

CNG sold a similar die pair in 2003 with essentially the same weight (i.e., 14.36 gm). See http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ucID=61&Lot=86

Gorny & Mosch sold one in 2005. See http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...D=101&Lot=1212


I think you're safe, but would be interested in hearing the opinions of others as Macedonian coins are not a strong suit of mine. In any event...a very attractive coin!

Jeff
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Old Aug 17, 2006, 05:06 PM   #3
4to2centophilia
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Jeff

I tend to agree. I am guessing the fine detail of the bow would be hard to cast that sharp. Plus I believe the seller is reputable. I saw the GM coin you linked. I'm thrilled I saw your e-mail ( I would have been dissappointed if it had been sold) But I always like to hear others opinions.


Mark
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Old Aug 30, 2006, 05:04 PM   #4
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I just received my coin

I have only the best things to say about this seller (M‹NZHANDLUNG RITTER). Besides being expedient, they did the little things that cost them little but are such a fine touch.

Coin was well packed without any chance of theft (quadruple sealed). The coin came in a flat 2x2 velvet lined box, had a printed tag containing all attribution info and included a plastic coated 6x8 card with photo, attribution info and their "certification" for a file system or binder.

Much nicer than the 1.5 x 1.5 inch flip with nothing else, I received from a well known US dealer.

I certainly don't have purchasing experience in a broad sense. Which of the two scenarios is more common?

Mark
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Old Aug 31, 2006, 08:50 AM   #5
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Hi, Mark.

The latter scenario is certainly the more prevalent. Sounds like you got the royal treatment with M. Ritter, which I suspect was their aim (in part) because now we are all impressed and will look more closely at their wares. Very smart business move. As my wife said recently about some Tiffany earrings I purchased for her to celebrate our anniversary, "it's all in the packaging."

Can you post a scan of their certificate? I'd be curious to see how they did it and whether it mimics the format of Sear's authentification certificates.

Warm regards,
Jeff
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Old Aug 31, 2006, 11:00 AM   #6
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Jeff

Your wife is right.

I will scan and post the certificate over the weekend. It is such a simple but nice touch. I will definitely be looking closer at their inventory. They certainly get the nod for meeting customer expectations.


Regards

Mark

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Old Aug 31, 2006, 11:28 AM   #7
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Ritter is a very reliable company, though their prizes usually are a bit too high for my taste. But quality has its price, of course.

Excellent coin, Mark.

Lars
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Old Sep 3, 2006, 11:07 AM   #8
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certificate

Jeff and all

Here is the scanned certificate. It is in a plastic sleeve with binder holes. It is about 5x8 inches.

Mark
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Old Sep 3, 2006, 12:38 PM   #9
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Very classy. I like their layout...might borrow it for my inventory sheets.

Jeff
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Old Sep 5, 2006, 05:57 AM   #10
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Here is a question for all.

Ritter gave in its description of this coin, "protome of pegsos, before bow".

I can't find any translation of this and can only assume they mean "profile of pegasus" before bow. Ritter used this same phrase to describe the obverse of a coin that does have a profile of pegasus (left facing from wings to head).

I see nothing of the sort on this coin and since they mis-attributed it as leRider 122 and Barry says it is LeRider 164.....I can assume they did the same with the pegasus....correct?

Or am I missing something.

Mark
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Old Sep 5, 2006, 06:09 AM   #11
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Here is a question for all.

Ritter gave in its description of this coin, "protome of pegsos, before bow".

I can't find any translation of this and can only assume they mean "profile of pegasus" before bow. Ritter used this same phrase to describe the obverse of a coin that does have a profile of pegasus (left facing from wings to head).

I see nothing of the sort on this coin and since they mis-attributed it as leRider 122 and Barry says it is LeRider 164.....I can assume they did the same with the pegasus....correct?

Or am I missing something.

Mark
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Old Sep 5, 2006, 05:25 PM   #12
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Protome = head or forepart of human or animal body.

It's clear that they misattributed it. Barry's attributions are solid, so I'd go with what he said. LeRider 122 probably has the protome, while 164 (your coin) does not.

Jeff
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Old Sep 5, 2006, 09:31 PM   #13
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LeRider 122-141 have the forepart of Pegasos below the rider's feet and the bow under the raised leg of the horse. LeRider 145-173 have just the bow. Interestingly, on this reverse die there is what appears to be an erased Pegasos below the rider's feet, a point noted by LeRider. This die is not known with the Pegasos, so either an old, unused die had the Pegasos removed or a new die was accidentally engraved with the Pegasos and then corrected. The obverse die was not used with any of the Pegasos issues but is die linked with two other reverse dies, both lacking the Pegasos.

Attached is a photo of an example with the Pegasos from CNG sale 64.


Barry Murphy
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Old Sep 6, 2006, 05:54 AM   #14
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LeRider

Thanks Gents.

I did notice the smudge under the riders feet. I thought perhaps that part of the die had been filled with debris before the strike. Barrys explanation makes sense.

Of course I now have a nice certificate that is incorrectly attributed.

I will add some of Barrys comments to my coins profile.

Regards

Mark
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Old Sep 6, 2006, 12:37 PM   #15
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Mark,

To Ritter's credit, they picked up on the very unusual pegasos corrected die, but made the mistake of assuming that it was a natural die problem as opposed to what Barry noted as being purposeful. In any event, I think having the pegasos corrected die is even more preferable than those where it is clearly present.

Jeff
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