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Beginning Collectors All topics welcome, but civility is paramount. "Nourish to Flourish"

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Old Oct 1, 2009, 08:50 PM   #1
paul1888
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Same Dies?

Hello,

Are the two coins pictured below the same dies? Opinions and concerns.


Thanks,

Paul

Philip I on horse A.jpg

Philip I on horse B.jpg
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Old Oct 1, 2009, 10:23 PM   #2
areich
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I see no differences that can't easily be explained by the different lighting.
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Old Oct 1, 2009, 11:37 PM   #3
leetoone
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Absolutely bang on! Both obverse and reverse die matches.
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Old Oct 2, 2009, 05:39 AM   #4
paul1888
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same dies

Should I be concerned having purchased one of the two coins? They both are of the same weight 4.95 grams and sold within a few weeks of each other.

Thanks,

Paul
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Old Oct 2, 2009, 11:14 AM   #5
Flavus
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"Should I be concerned having purchased one of the two coins?"

Definitely don't lose your night's sleep because of that.
Personally, I also get suspicious when I come across such coincidences. However, this time the coins at least visually look genuine.
Besides if you have one in your possession you can examine it closely, and feel its texture, and that can also tell you a lot.
Build up your own opinon about your coin. If everything looks right about it, so it should be alright.

Last edited by Flavus : Oct 2, 2009 at 11:24 AM.
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Old Oct 3, 2009, 12:41 AM   #6
numismo
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Cool

It happened quite regularly that more than one coin was struck from a single pair of dies! - FYI.
A little educational reading may have aleviated your concerns (RIC, Sear, NC, ANJ, Sayles, etc., etc.).

Walter Holt
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Old Oct 3, 2009, 06:46 PM   #7
paul1888
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I have to say I feel a little insulted from the last post. As a matter I have done a little reading including "Classical Deception" by Wayne G. Sayles as well as his other books. I have read (studied) "Metal Analysis of Roman Coins Minted Under the Empire" and have looked at every example of the coin I have purchased currently on VCoins as well as searching in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts to see if they have examples in their collection. Additionally, I read posts from this site regularly so that I can learn since I realize I am not an expert.

From what I have read dies regularly became worn, more so with the reverse punch die than the obverse anvil die, which is evident from the many coins with a sharp obverse an reverse made from worn dies. So dies were evidently changed on a regular basis. Currently there are no two coins with the same dies for sale on VCoins of this coin. Also, the population of the Roman Empire at this time was large and covered a large geographical area. So I assume that coins circulated quite regularly, probably more so when there were military action as they may have been paid from these minted coins.

Yes, there were many coins potentially minted from the same dies, but from my readings and what I have read on this site, it may not be unusual that two coins from the same hoard, but no reference I have been able to quantitate this, and some on this site have pointed suspision when this has been true (source of my concern). That point has been pointed out recently when a suspicious hoard was discovered discussed at this site.

Additionally, the two coins pictured above are indicated to be of the exact same weight.

So, I posted this since I would like to learn more and see if there is anything that someone could add so that I can make an informative decision. I think as a collector that is the responsible thing to do. As Wayne G. Sayles wrote even the experts get fooled.

Paul

Last edited by paul1888 : Oct 3, 2009 at 08:20 PM.
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Old Oct 3, 2009, 09:55 PM   #8
numismo
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But it is TRUE that more than a single coin was struck from a single pair of dies.

And it is obvious from your own post (listing works you have read) that you have not read these references.
You should! They are good works in many ways.
You may choose to accept or reject my suggestion, but don't be so silly as to choose to be insulted by a simple suggestion and a statement of fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul1888 View Post
I have to say I feel a little insulted from the last post.
A most extraordinary reaction! I stated fact, and in a "matter-of-fact" way.
Your choice to be insulted or offended is really not my problem or concern!
It is a bizarre choice that I can neither understand nor accept as being expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul1888 View Post
Yes, there were many coins potentially minted from the same dies, but from my readings and what I have read on this site, it may not be unusual that two coins from the same hoard, but no reference I have been able to quantitate this (sic), and some on this site have pointed suspision when this has been true (source of my concern). That point has been pointed out recently when a suspicious hoard was discovered discussed at this site.
This is - more-or-less - exactly what I stated, though in far fewer words.
The highlighted part of your above post substantiates the gist of my post, you would truly benefit by reading the references I indicated, instead of wasting your time manipulating words out of their context and choosing to be insulted. That really makes no sense.

btw - in that so-called "hoard" all the coins of like type were identical, not just same "dies" etc., I am sure you read and saw that.

Your coins are of the same dies, but completely different flan shapes, strikes, centerings, etc., unlike that "hoard."

When you read some of the articles in the indicated references you will see, just as you stated yourself, that multiple coins of the same dies are often found together in hoards. Therefore it is not unexpected that those same coins sometimes come to market at similar times, and sometimes in the same sales.

You posted a simple question and were given a simple and straight-forward answer, and not only be me. I am not sure what else you wanted, or why you would bite the hand that was held out to you.

I guess I should be sorry for trying to offer help and advice.

Walter Holt
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 04:01 AM   #9
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Walter, I hope you don't choose to be insulted by this but you seem like the cliché of
the grumpy old coin dealer.
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 04:45 AM   #10
Incitatus
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Personally, If I had been the asker, I would have found the response :

"A little educational reading may have aleviated your concerns (RIC, Sear, NC, ANJ, Sayles, etc., etc.)."

to be more than a little condescending. I think we should encourage inexperienced folks to turn to experienced folks like us to answer their questions, without fear of being embarrassed for their lack of knowledge. Not everyone has a huge library, or the knowledge of even 'where to look' online for the answers. That, really, is kinda what these discussion boards are here for. Just my thoughts.

Cheers,
Steve

PS Please note - the section this post was put in is the BEGINNER'S HELP SECTION. Which is an entirely appropriate place for even the most basic of questions. Here is the tagline from this section :

Beginning Collectors - All topics welcome, but civility is paramount. "Nourish to Flourish"

Last edited by Incitatus : Oct 4, 2009 at 04:55 AM.
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 09:00 AM   #11
numismo
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by areich View Post
Walter, I hope you don't choose to be insulted by this but
you seem like the cliché of the grumpy old coin dealer.
Well dear sir, when you directly call someone a disparaging name what do you expect?

I, on the other hand, did no such thing, I simply directed a newbie to some fine reading.
It was his choice to be insulted, not my choice to do the insulting - as you, rather
hypocritically, did yourself. I am not sure why an apparently nice person like you would
do such a thing!

Having said that, I was not and am not insulted by such a term as "grumpy" though
the "old" part did give rise to some concern.

Allow me to ask you this, Mr. "areich," what part of my original response was incorrect,
misleading, or otherwise wrong?

Was my reading list inaccurate? No, I don't think so, they are excellent works. And I
am fairly sure that you weren't suggesting that Paul NOT read any of these books.
Were you?

As I said, I am certain he would benefit from this reading and more - I did, many of us
did. Many more of us will in the future. My response was perhaps a little perfunctory,
straight to the point, but not wrong or inaccurate.

Are coins ever struck from the same dies? Yes, they are. Seeing two coins from the same
dies does not, of itself, cause concern or raise suspicions. Other factors come into play.
What exactly did I state that was not correct or factual?

Is it not better to teach a person to fish, than to spoon-feed him forever so that he never
has the cause or motivation to learn himself. Is this REALLY what you are suggesting?
Surely not!

Was it my lack of explanation about what those abbreviations meant that caused this
rather curious outrage? I am more than happy to expand if that was the case.

I do admit to my failure in not noticing the Beginning Collectors title, but I did see that
the poster had well over a hundred posts and this may have mislead my impression,
but not my response. I would probably have added a little more of an explanation had
the poster had, say, 6 posts, or 11, or 1.

And of course, Steve/Incitatus, I can see why a reponse such as this may, to you, be
viewed as condescending - but it was not directed at you, nor did you ask the question.
This was a simple question that appeared to require a simple answer. I offered a not
unreasonable suggestion and have been crucified for offering assistance and the manner
in which I offered it.

I ask again, was I wrong, misleading, incorrect about ANY of my post?

Now who is being unfair?

I also see that you are in fact a moderator - should I take issue with areich? I won't.

Afterall, I have far fewer posts than either of these people. Should I not also be treated
with kid-gloves? I won't even begin with the vitriol directed at me by a suspect poster in
another topic on this forum. Where were the heroic moderators for that subject/topic?

I only wish I could say that this was the most ridiculous thing I have encountered, but
sadly it is not. As Albert Einstein said: "There are only two things that are infinite, the
universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe."

Walter Holt

Also, Andreas, you do not know me AT ALL, so you should perhaps consider keeping your
unfounded personal opinions to yourself. If you should have these opinions when/after
we meet, then you are welcome to them, but until then pull your head in. In any case I am
quite sure that whatever they are, they are not for airing in this forum.
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 01:24 PM   #12
areich
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You can dish it out but really not take it, huh?
Sorry but I'm not reading that rant, please get help before you have a stroke.
You're not really making yourself look good as a dealer either.

I'm serious this is not even funny anymore.
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 02:21 PM   #13
paul1888
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Walter, I do not know if it was your intent but the line in yor answer "A little educational reading may have aleviated your concerns (RIC, Sear, NC, ANJ, Sayles, etc., etc.). sounded to me that you think the question I posed was stupid and possibly a reflection of me. However, I do not think it was a stupid question and one which I think others may also have. I have asked a number of questions on this board and never gotten a response like yours.

You probably have handled thousands of coins during your career, I have handled/owned less than 200. Your library of refernces is probably many times larger than mine, I certaintly hope so. Of the refernces I have (some of which I listed above) none of them specifically addresses the prevalance of multiple coins of the same dies. Having handled all the coins you have, how many have you found?

Unfortunately I have been burned by professional dealers in the past (I am not talking about EBay) therefore I try to protect myself as much as I can and question anomolies. And for me this was an anomaly since I have never seen this before.

Finally, if you or anyone else has a refernce that you know of that can shed more light on this specific question I would love to know it. Believe it or not I wish I didnot have to go to forums like this for help, but I do.
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 02:47 PM   #14
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Paul

I responded to your original post way above. Absolutely right they are die matches both obverse and reverse.

I have several similar coins. Some that came from the same hoard and presumably had been together since "birth". Others that are so rare that there were probably only one or two dies for those particular coins. So, not surprising the dies were the same.

A rare few that came together later through serendipity and happened to be die matches.

But, reasonable that a die match should make one ask questions.

Best wishes

Lee
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 02:56 PM   #15
Ron Kelley
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Paul I have read many posts written by numismo. Walter Holt, AKA numismo, is very adept at insulting fellow collectors. Walter’s problem is something I am not qualified to heal.
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