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Beginning Collectors All topics welcome, but civility is paramount. "Nourish to Flourish"

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Old Oct 4, 2009, 04:01 PM   #16
paul1888
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Lee,

Thanks that was exactly what I was looking for. Do know under what circumstances I should be concerned? I have read that fake die struck coins will have flat surfaces and the flans may all be the same shape/size. Are there other hints?

Thanks,

Paul
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 05:12 PM   #17
Flavus
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"I have read that fake die struck coins will have flat surfaces and the flans may all be the same shape/size. Are there other hints?"

Paul,
I hope this might be helpful:
http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/struck.htm
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 05:26 PM   #18
paul1888
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Flavus,

Thanks, that is a very useful link and what I was looking for.


Again, thanks

Paul
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 06:35 PM   #19
Flavus
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Paul,

You are very, very welcome. I think that this coin that you got will be a beautiful addition to your neat collection.
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Old Oct 4, 2009, 11:51 PM   #20
numismo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul1888 View Post
Walter, I do not know if it was your intent but the line in yor answer "A little educational reading may have aleviated your concerns (RIC, Sear, NC, ANJ, Sayles, etc., etc.). sounded to me that you think the question I posed was stupid and possibly a reflection of me. However, I do not think it was a stupid question and one which I think others may also have. I have asked a number of questions on this board and never gotten a response like yours.
No one EVER suggested you were stupid, nor anything else for that matter.
I DON"T EVEN KNOW how you make such a fanciful leap, the leap the caused all of this ridiculousness.
This was not a stupid question, it was a simple question that seemed to require a simple answer.
I was not about to write an essay on this where I thought a few words would have sufficed.

How in the world did this get to this point?

Quote:
Having handled all the coins you have, how many have you found?
Heaps! They are surprisingly frequent - many of the top sales have them, including ones
right now - CNG E-sale for one; and at the risk of attracting the ire of all and sundry once
again I will tell you again . . if you READ THE BOOKS I offered you too will see that this is so!
I don't know what the heck is wrong with me saying that, but I will say it forever because
it is true and perhaps the best advice anyone can give another. Read the books!

Quote:
Unfortunately I have been burned by professional dealers in the past.
This is the most shocking revelation. There are dealer organisations to address such issues
and I hope you are able to get some form of action taken against those responsible.

Quote:
Finally, if you or anyone else has a refernce that you know of that can shed more light on this specific question I would love to know it. Believe it or not I wish I didnot have to go to forums like this for help, but I do.
Here is a good place to begin. Simple and easy to read.
http://dougsmith.ancients.info/dielink.html

Die links are discussed in relation to studies on particular mints (eg: die-studies) and in
relation to the various coin hoards. Basically pick one that interests you and go from there.
For this sort of material then how about the Cunetio Hoard, or the Sisak hoard, or any of
the many in NC (Numismatic Chronicle) or the AJN (American Journal of Numismatics).

I don't know whether you are a member of a club, but there are people there who I am sure
would be able to assist you with some of your questions, and perhaps direct you to resources
for things they are less able to address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by areich View Post
You can dish it out but really not take it, huh?
Sorry but I'm not reading that rant, please get help before you have a stroke.
You're not really making yourself look good as a dealer either.

I'm serious this is not even funny anymore.
Dish WHAT out??

You are right, this isn't funny. Yours is pure idiocy. Moreso because you didn't even read my post!

I stated a fact, and directed a collector to some books.
WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH THAT??

Paul somehow misinterpreted some good and proper advice and all of a sudden the
ridiculous attacks begin from the nameless and faceless and those uninvolved poking
their unwanted heads in trying to stir up trouble where none existed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Kelley View Post
Paul I have read many posts written by numismo.
Walter Holt, AKA numismo, is very adept at insulting fellow collectors.
Walter’s problem is something I am not qualified to heal.
Ron Kelley
Now I challenge YOU sir! Back up your baseless claim or WITHDRAW your lies.

Prove any of your shameful allegations. You cannot! Now scuttle back to the shadows.

Who are you anyway? Why are you deliberately trying to stir up trouble where none exists?

You had nothing to do with this and then you chime in with a deliberate slander.

MODERATORS: Please, DO SOMETHING about this person and his lies.

What is wrong with you people?

Paul, I have always been glad to help, my TRUE record substantiates this (not the lies above).
I have done so in the past and will do so again in the future.
Your reaction was extraordinary and beyond my understanding.
You may take my advice or not. Its up to you.
Good luck with your reading and collecting.

Walter Holt
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Old Oct 5, 2009, 02:31 AM   #21
areich
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Let's change the sub-forum from:

Beginning Collectors All topics welcome, but civility is paramount. "Nourish to Flourish"

to

Beginning Collectors Stupid questions from stupid people "Make the idiots wish they'd never come here"

and make Walter moderator.

All problems solved and it will further decrease traffic and with that bandwith cost.
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Old Oct 5, 2009, 03:19 AM   #22
hummell
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I have a better suggestion. I think moderators should put up a glove icon with the inscription "smack with a glove" so Walter could challenge you people. It would fit with the shakespearean tone of his language
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Old Oct 5, 2009, 04:30 AM   #23
numismo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by areich View Post
Let's change the sub-forum from:

Beginning Collectors All topics welcome, but civility is paramount. "Nourish to Flourish"

to

Beginning Collectors Stupid questions from stupid people "Make the idiots wish they'd never come here"

and make Walter moderator.

All problems solved and it will further decrease traffic and with that bandwith cost.
And there we have it! The ONLY person to suggest that Paul's or any other person's
question was stupid has been highlighted above. If there is a more ridiculous suggestion
than this above post then I have not heard of it.

Let me spell it out for you. Prior to Andreas' above post NO ONE said ANY question was
in any way stupid, or improper or anything else.

How do you manufacture a problem that is not there and then blow it out of all intelligent
proportion? Have you no integrity? Have you no decency?

You and your motives are truly bizarre, whatever they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hummell View Post
I have a better suggestion. I think moderators should put up a glove icon with the inscription "smack with a glove" so Walter could challenge you people. It would fit with the shakespearean tone of his language
And here we have another one jumping on this ridiculous band wagon. I have NO DESIRE
to call anyone here stupid, though my patience is being tested by some of these extraordinary
responses. Nor "smack with a glove," whatever that means.

Let me use little words for the benefit those being critical of my expanded use of vocabulary.

Paul is not stupid. Paul's questions was not stupid. I do not know how anyone can possibly
think that anything else was the case. It is beyond my understanding. The only people who
are possibly stupid are those perpetuating (sorry, big word!) that something was said or
intimated that was not.

Further, I welcome Paul's questions and the questions of those like Paul. I absolutely reject
any suggestion to the contrary. My past record of open assistance verifies this, not the lies
told by those above vindictive and shadowy figures with fraudulent motives.

No one has provided anything to substantiate (sorry, another big word!) anything opposite
to what I have maintained all along. That is because there is nothing to produce. You people
have made it up and pointed the finger like a fanatical crowd hunting the monster from a
Frankenstein movie. Your fantasy world does not exist. And it seems that none of you have
the integrity, the honesty or the decency to admit your lies. You keep making up new lies to
cover for the fact that you cannot substantiate your previous lies.

Let me repeat for the slow folks: Paul is not stupid. Paul's questions was not stupid.
And let me repeat for the even slower folks: I have never suggested anything otherwise.

Now please stop fabricating your malicious lies. Start telling the truth.

I have vain hopes that someone will find a modicum of integrity, utilise it and then put
an end to this foolishness. Stop the lies.

Walter Holt
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Old Oct 5, 2009, 04:43 AM   #24
areich
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Please 'don't be so silly as to choose to be insulted by a simple suggestion and a statement of fact', Walter.
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Old Oct 5, 2009, 05:07 AM   #25
4to2centophilia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by areich View Post
Walter, I hope you don't choose to be insulted by this but you seem like the cliché of
the grumpy old coin dealer.
I have learned, and I have come to accept, that the coin collecting world is populated by people (myself included) who have a little more OC behavior than the average citizen.

When you are amongst a group of people who revel in examining every minute detail and derivative of tiny engraved pieces of metal, you shouldn't be surprised that posts will also be subjected to the same level of scrutiny and passion.

That's all I would like to say on the matter.

BR

Mark


Oh my, I wrote "you shouldn't be surprised?"

That seemed so innocent when I wrote it, but upon reflection I see that it was an unconciously hostile attempt to condescend. I am sorry if you were offended.


Oh My, I wrote "sorry if you were offended". Upon reflection, I see how this can be interpreted as cold blooded sarcasm. It wasn' t my intention, but I can see how a person could misinterprate my intent.

Oh my, I see how that last sentence could be miscontrued to imply YOU are ignorant and prone to misinterpretation. I apologize profusely.




In retrospect, I don't think I can write anything that can't be misconstrued in some manner.

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Old Oct 5, 2009, 05:15 AM   #26
Incitatus
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EVERYONE - This nonsense needs to stop.

WALTER - stop taking offense and 'challenging people' and being so belligerent. You MUST recognize that you have alienated at least a dozen people here.

Andreas - Please don't bait Walter any further.

I do not, and have not, been moderating grown-up conversations with people who should know better. I'm going to ask you, Walter, to stop taking so much umbrage when it is abundantly clear that you annoyed several people with your attitude and elitism, earlier in the thread and especially over the past day. FYI, I have received multiple private emails about your conduct throughout this thread.

Further inflammatory posts, or attempts to challenge other people to duels, to to speak, WILL BE MODERATED. Behave, gentlemen, or go join another discussion group

Cheers,
Steve
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Old Oct 5, 2009, 07:44 AM   #27
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Guilty as charged, I don't think it will happen again anytime soon.
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Old Oct 5, 2009, 06:10 PM   #28
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To return to the original question: two EF+ Philip antoniniani from the same dies and with the same weight (unless the dealer just forgot to change it for the second specimen), offered by the same dealer in rapid succession, do strike me as suspicious.

Yes, the style is quite good, but I am not prepared from the images to say that the dies must be ancient. Many of the Lipanoff dies from Bulgaria are very good copies of the original style, so quite deceptive in isolation. Fortunately I don't find your actual dies in I. Prokopov's Lipanoff book of 2004 or in the Fake Reports of Forvm Ancient Coins. The obv. die shown below from those Fake Reports, impossibly coupled with a rev. type of Gordian III, is quite close, however!

Yes, hoards often include die duplicates: the example I like to cite is the occurrence in the Eauze hoard, discovered in 1985, of no fewer than 1184 antoniniani of Valerian I from the same pair of dies, plus 1045, 111, 77, 3 and 1 examples respectively from that same obv. die and five other rev. dies!

Is the same dealer offering lots of other EF+ antoniniani of the same era, Gord. III, Philip, Decius and so on, as though he had in fact been able to purchase selections from a recent hoard of them?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PhilipIAntFakeVIRTVTI AVGVSTI.jpg (77.9 KB, 60 views)

Last edited by curtislclay : Oct 7, 2009 at 02:44 PM.
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Old Oct 5, 2009, 08:40 PM   #29
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The obverses do look different. There are too many small details which don't match. For instance, the crown rays (the fake's tops are sharper), the form of the lips (the fake's looks like an upward triangle, Paul's looks like a short straight line), et cetera et cetera (chins, eyes, and basically every other small detail..)
I still believe that Paul's coin is genuine as at least visually the details and the whole coin appearance look right. That is of course strictly in my opinion.
Curtis, about the fake coin again (it does look so much like genuine). Besides the impossibility of the obverse/reverse combination is there any other indication of the coin being fake? Thanks a lot in advance.

Last edited by Flavus : Oct 6, 2009 at 12:59 PM.
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Old Oct 5, 2009, 11:29 PM   #30
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Yes, as pointed out by Martin Griffiths in the Fake Reports, the same obv. die (which as I said is SIMILAR, but NOT THE SAME, as that of Paul's coin) also occurs with ANOTHER impossible rev. type of Gordian III, VICTOR AETER, on a coin whose numerous edge cracks reveal it to be pressed, as observed by Jim Schaffer.
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