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Forgery Alerts Reports and discussion regarding possible forgeries.

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Old Apr 7, 2007, 09:05 AM   #61
Arthur Brand
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Originally Posted by Jonkag7 View Post
Art,

Hey, I've been following this thread, but have been a little confused. I see clearly that you have a large and prolific background in finding fakes on the market, but what exactly do you do? Is this your job or just a 'hobby'? I'd just like to know as its very interesting to me and you seem to know a lot about fakes.

Jon
Hi Jon,

I myself am a collector. I think too less is done to protect our hobby.
I encounter a lot of resistance. Many dealers and collectors just do not want to hear that our hobby has some problems.

Though nobody seems to believe it, I especially want to protect fellow-collectors. I just canīt stand that they are sometimes tricked.

But above all, itīs just fun, to chase the forgers. I know some of them and I want them to fear me.

My style sometimes seems ridiculous but thatīs just the way we Dutch are.

Art
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Old Apr 7, 2007, 09:23 AM   #62
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Itīs so funny.

Everybody knows that dealers NEVER EVER give the name of the consignor. Thatīs top-secret, not even the buyer will be told.

Ask Baldwin whether I am right that the consignor in this case was Haid Kaysoun from Syria. Shouldnīt this ring a bell?
Another well kept secret is that this coin was looked at by Andrew Meadows from the British Museum in the nineties. He rejected the coin.
If I know all this info, why shouldnīt my other info be right, that the coin is a fake made by Giacomo in Sicily?

Btw, the low profile of the coin is ridiculous. Even without my info everybody should recognise this fake.

Art

Last edited by Arthur Brand : Apr 7, 2007 at 10:03 AM.
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Old Apr 7, 2007, 11:18 AM   #63
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Art,

As with most things, I take all that is said from both sides with a bit of skepticism. However, one of the points you have raised in this deka matter seems verifiable and certainly damning. The fact that this coin was condemned by the BM expert lends weight to your argument, but what I want to know is how or why was this opinion changed? On what basis did the BM expert change his/her opinion? I'm assuming that some sort of supporting evidence for authenticity was presented that was convincing enough to move the opinion?

Jeff
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Old Apr 7, 2007, 11:26 AM   #64
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Art,

The fact that this coin was condemned by the BM expert lends weight to your argument, but what I want to know is how or why was this opinion changed? On what basis did the BM expert change his/her opinion?
Jeff
Andrew Meadows, curator of the BM, condemned the coin, based on the low-relief. After that the numismatist Fischer-Bossert compared the coin with other Dekas and concluded that there were die-links.
Of course there were die-links as this fake was made by the forger of the so-called British Museum forgeries, Giacomo from Sicily.
Once Fischer-Bossert had convinced Meadows, they tried to explain the low relief, with the outcome that there were three issues minted from the Athenian Dekadrachm.

But if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is a duck...

I wonīt let this stupid fake trouble our numismatic knowledge about the most precious coin-series ever.

Art
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Old Apr 7, 2007, 11:37 AM   #65
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And does anyone have the Giacomo from Sicily dies? Seems like having one of these on hand would be the smoking gun to put this whole thing to rest.

Jeff
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Old Apr 7, 2007, 11:56 AM   #66
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This is the link to the BOC article about these scumbags.
The magazine BOC was recently offered for sale on CD-Rom.

http://www.michelvanrijn.nl/artnews/bulletin.htm

Art
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Old Apr 8, 2007, 01:04 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by bpmurphy View Post
Art sent me a photo of the Baldwin Deka. Thanks Art.

Looking at the photo (called B), I disagree that it's the same reverse die as the Triton specimen (called C). Very close, butnot the same.

1) The left wing of B, there are four rows of dots whereas C only has 3.
2) The left wing of C is closer to the edge of the die than on B
3) The owls thighs on C are proportionally much shorther than on B.
4) B has no feathers directly between the eyes and on B the feathers touch the eye circles
5) the dots on the tail are different on the two coins

The letter positions seem to be identical and the number of feathers on each wing is the same. Maybe the dies were recut after use, but there are some significant differences.

Barry Murphy
Barry:

Can die recutting explain the different die cracks on the two dekas. The Baldwin example has a small die crack in the "Theta" @6:0, while the CNG has a large die crack above the right wing? (the CNG coin has a small nacent die crack in the theta but slightly different).

And if the dies are different (not just recut, but if recut it should have been mentioned on a coin description of this price.), doesn't that make Baldwin's authenticity claim based upon a reverse die match to the CNG coin incorrrect? Furthermore, should the unpublished nature of the obverse die now be an authenticity concern? Finially, as you state the reverse dies are very close, close enough for Baldwin to mistakenly identify them as die matches, isn't this a problem in itself if no recutting was involved? This may hint at recut transfer dies.

Please see the previously uploaded image of the Baldwin owl reverse for a better image
http://www.ancients.info/forums/atta...1&d=1175798705
and here is a better CNG image
http://cngcoins.com//photos/enlarged/74000230.jpg

Sincerely yours,
Cliff Laubstein
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File Type: jpg owl compare.jpg (74.8 KB, 159 views)

Last edited by cliff : Apr 8, 2007 at 02:14 PM. Reason: general
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Old Apr 8, 2007, 01:54 PM   #68
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I would add that the olive leaves on the CNG deka are longer and thinner, with the lower leaf on the CNG sample angling towards the left more.
Ronn
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Old Apr 14, 2007, 11:32 AM   #69
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Baldwinīs fake Athenian Dekadrachm on MvR.nl, second article from above:

http://www.michelvanrijn.nl/artnews/artnws.htm

Art
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Old Apr 15, 2007, 10:01 AM   #70
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Interesting. At least we're naming names, which can then be confirmed. I suspect, however, that short of you posting an electronic version of the audio confession there will be reactionary push-back on the claims.

It is standard scientific method to seek to test a theory or claim against a null hypothesis, so in effect one is constrained to either rejecting the null (i.e., tentative evidence for the hypothesized relationship) or "failing to reject" the null (i.e., lack of evidence to support hypothesized relationship).

When dealing with coins of such potential importance and cost (i.e., > $200K), it might be prudent to argue that the null state should be one of fakery. Therefore, it is the burden of those making claims of authenticity to provide evidence supporting a claim that the "null is false." Whether this rephrasing of burden holds for all ancients is probably not appropriate, but I could see where one could use the prior probabilities of fakes in a certain coin type and use this to determine which way the burden equation should be shifted.

Flame away...

Jeff
Flame away? Are you high? You're speakin' my language! Described like a true Six Sigma Black Belt

God, I need to get a life

--Beast (yes, I know I'm getting into this thread rather late - just finished a monster project for a customer which took two weeks).
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Old Apr 15, 2007, 10:23 AM   #71
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Ask Andrew. Ute Wartenberg ordered my book through a middleman.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ute Wartenberg
To: Arthur Brand
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: Carchemish-hoard


Dear Arthur,

thank you for your email. I have not had a chance to read your book, although I got a copy through the ANS.

Best wishes,
Ute
Folks,

Although I'm a moderator on this forum, I've never moderated anyone or any post. However, I want to make a point and Art, I'm not picking on you, but the above post is not acceptable. I will not allow people to post private emails in a public forum without permission. I know MVR does this all of the time, which I why I will never, under any circumstances, ever write to him about anything and I don't want the kind of behaviour from that site on this one.

Private emails are private and posting them publically is simply wrong, unless:

1 - The private email is permitted by the writer to be reused
2 - The private email is threatening and the recipient posts it to provide some security for themselves
3 - The private email is proof of some wrongdoing.

Please, everyone, keep this in mind when posting.

Thanks and sorry for being a bear about this, but it's my personal belief in how to handle what is initially meant to be private.

--Zach Beasley
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Last edited by BeastCoins : Apr 15, 2007 at 10:44 AM.
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Old Apr 15, 2007, 10:41 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by bpmurphy View Post
Art sent me a photo of the Baldwin Deka. Thanks Art.

Looking at the photo (called B), I disagree that it's the same reverse die as the Triton specimen (called C). Very close, butnot the same.

1) The left wing of B, there are four rows of dots whereas C only has 3.
2) The left wing of C is closer to the edge of the die than on B
3) The owls thighs on C are proportionally much shorther than on B.
4) B has no feathers directly between the eyes and on B the feathers touch the eye circles
5) the dots on the tail are different on the two coins

The letter positions seem to be identical and the number of feathers on each wing is the same. Maybe the dies were recut after use, but there are some significant differences.

Barry Murphy
Folks,

Although Greek coins are not my chosen specialty, it's easy to see even for me these coins are not the same dies. Barry has already pointed out some differences and here are others (although some differences are confounded by the difference in lighting sources between the two images):

1 - The Baldwin's example appears to have 7 tail feathers, the CNG 8
2 - The length and direction of the connecting stem to the lower olive leaf is different, as well as the shape and size of the lower leaf
3 - The shape of the eyes on the Baldwin's specimen are conspicuously not round. To me, stylistically, this strikes me as being exceptionally odd (but again, remember I'm not a Greek expert)
4 - The incuse shape itself is not sharp, which I would expect it to be, but may be part of the whole "low relief" issue?
5 - The CNG owl tail feathers look like they are decorated with 5 dots, the Baldwin piece with columns of dots.
6 - Unless I simply can't see it on my laptop screen, the furthest left feather on the right wing of the bottom row on the CNG example matches up with the feather on the row above it. The Baldwin coin has a orphaned feather there. This causes the CNG second bottom feather to align vertically with the center dot of the theta whereas on the Baldwin coin, it's the third.

And a host of other things which I'm sure I've already bored the living daylights out of you, so I'll stop. I would just be extremely surprised if in hand these coins are reverse die matches.

--Zach Beasley
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Old Apr 15, 2007, 10:54 AM   #73
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Folks,

Although I'm a moderator on this forum, I've never moderated anyone or any post. However, I want to make a point and Art, I'm not picking on you, but the above post is not acceptable. I will not allow people to post private emails in a public forum without permission. I know MVR does this all of the time, which I why I will never, under any circumstances, ever write to him about anything and I don't want the kind of behaviour from that site on this one.

Private emails are private and posting them publically is simply wrong, unless:

1 - The private email is permitted by the writer to be reused
2 - The private email is threatening and the recipient posts it to provide some security for themselves
3 - The private email is proof of some wrongdoing.

Please, everyone, keep this in mind when posting.

Thanks and sorry for being a bear about this, but it's my personal belief in how to handle what is initially meant to be private.

--Zach Beasley

Hi Beast,

Of course you are right, but I censured the e-mail to something not very compromising.
Apart from that, these guys (and girls) from the IAPN played tricks on me. They used a middle-man to order the books. They even wanted signed copies
Somebody send me the money by post, though it never made it.

Anyway, itīs 28 degrees Celsius in Amsterdam today...
This climate-change is quite cool.

Art
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Old Apr 15, 2007, 11:03 AM   #74
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Hello Art,

I know the email you used was pretty benign and I'm glad it was since I could use it to make my point that I really don't want to see someone reprint something that could really be embarrasing or damaging.

What happened between you and the IAPN is really none of our business. That's your private business and you don't need to tell us about it.


The private tapes, documentation, etc. you receive from your sources on fakes proposes an interesting dilemma. Since you received them I would suspect based on trust you would not release them verbatim, it puts you in the awkward position of having knowledge you can't reasonably share. Thus, you make claims of having privledged information, but since you can't share it, it doesn't do anyone any good. We have to take you on your word, but being that the information is so sensational, that isn't good enough to hold water (if this were a court system and not an on-line discussion group).

My, my. I do seem to have completely strayed from my original point, but I guess I just had some thoughts running around my head to try to get down in writing.

--Zach Beasley
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Old Apr 28, 2007, 05:44 AM   #75
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Baldwinīs fake Athenian Dekadrachm was not sold at auction. It was bought in at GBP 95,000...

Regards to all who say that Michel van Rijn and myself are not taken serious.

Art
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