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Forgery Alerts Reports and discussion regarding possible forgeries.

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Old Jan 7, 2009, 04:40 PM   #1
BeastCoins
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Gemini stater?

Hello folks,

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought this coin was withdrawn from Gemini as a BOC forgery?



Lot 604 - Estimate $140,000 - Realized $100,000

Mysia, Pergamum. Ca. 334 BC. Gold stater (8.60 gm). Head of young Heracles right in lion skin headdress / Facing Palladium wearing calathus on head, holding lance in raised right hand and filleted shield on left arm, crested Corinthian helmet right in lower left field, rooster standing left in lower right field. Cf. von Fritze, Die Munzen von Pergamon, pl. 1, 7, 100 Greatest Ancient Coins, p. 61, and SNG Paris 1557 (rooster lacking). Struck in ultra-high relief on both obverse and reverse. Stunning mint state.

This coin is distinguished by its rooster symbol, which does not appear on any other recorded stater of Pergamum. The reverse style and, to a lesser degree, the obverse style also differ from those of the known staters.

Was this determined to be authentic after all?



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Old Jan 7, 2009, 05:31 PM   #2
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I have this marked in my catalog as selling for $90k

I believe this coin was bid between a woman in the back and someone at the front.

She thought she had it at $75k but then someone bid up front at $80k, she bid $85k and then the front bid $90k and she dropped out. She actually gathered her roll-on and coat and left the auction. It was the only coin I saw her bid on.

That's all I can tell you.


Where are you gettting that sales price? If I go to sixbid and go to prices realized, I get the standard Gemini site saying prices will be posted 5pm CST today.........but there are noprices.
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Old Jan 7, 2009, 05:40 PM   #3
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Here's the link to the Gemini prices. It's from the top of the Gemini homepage.

http://www.geminiauction.com/Gemini_...s_Realized.pdf

Jim
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Old Jan 7, 2009, 05:57 PM   #4
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Folks,

Attached is the 1996 BOC, Vol 21, vol 1 page, 8 figure 1a. as provided initially by Arthur Brand on the Moneta list. This clearly is the coin shown in the bulletin. Has it been declared genuine since the notice was produced in 1996? I've unfortunately already written in my copy of the Gemini catalogue that it was a forgery and printed a copy of the bulletin. I would hate to eventually have that catalogue pass on to someone else with wrong information in it if the coin has been declared genuine.



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Old Jan 7, 2009, 06:13 PM   #5
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How often does this happen, that a coin that is withdrawn as a fake then reappears at the floor auction? Will the coin in question appear on coinarchives.com, I wonder?

You can't chalk the reappearance at the floor as a "simple mistake," so I'm all ears for a good explanation.

J
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Old Jan 7, 2009, 06:17 PM   #6
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Jeff,

I don't know how it can't appear at coinarchives.com since Mark actually saw it sell. I don't get it. The coin somehow has to have been delisted from the BOC ranks, but I have not yet heard how that happens and through what process. Maybe that's why the BOC no longer exists? Were they condemning authentic coins?

I'm utterly confused.

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Old Jan 7, 2009, 06:22 PM   #7
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Zach, you are far more charitable than I.

Yeah...that's the ticket. BOC was ALL WRONG!
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Old Jan 7, 2009, 07:53 PM   #8
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Who are "S.H." and "A.W." (i.e., listed at the bottom right of the BOC listing)? Maybe these persons were consulted about the prospect of a BOC reversal?

J
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Old Jan 7, 2009, 09:18 PM   #9
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Silvia Hurter and Alan Walker, formerly the chief experts at Bank Leu's numismatic department.
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Old Jan 8, 2009, 03:46 AM   #10
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Still, the rationale from the BOC bulletin is dreadfully pertinent (just compare the Athenas styles ...); should I be in a position to bid on that coin, I would be very worried, even with a reversal from the initial BOC opinion.

Jérôme
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Old Jan 8, 2009, 11:35 AM   #11
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We're assuming that the BOC individuals were consulted and the determination of fakery was reversed...haven't heard anything on either front.

Anyone at the NYC auctions or the coming shows care to ask HJB or Freeman reps directly?

J
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Old Jan 9, 2009, 02:21 PM   #12
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Beast -- why not direct this inquiry to Curtis Clay. He should know what transpired.
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Old Jan 9, 2009, 02:54 PM   #13
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As we are all quite interested, I hope that if anyone gets any inside "info" on how this coin was deemed legitimate they will pass it on to the rest of us.

If you recall a few years ago there was an athena dekadrahm that had previously been deemed fake and later sold at at one of the NY auctions. From what I understand from that episode, there was never a formal declaration that the coin was legitimate, enough people in the know began to accept it as legitimate that it was eventually put up for auction. Apparently there was going to be a legal battle over the issue, so it was decided that it was easier to just put the coin up for sale and let the market decide if their was a desire for it. I may have a few of the details wrong, but that I believe is the upshot of what happened.
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Old Jan 9, 2009, 05:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragmop View Post
Beast -- why not direct this inquiry to Curtis Clay. He should know what transpired.
Brian,

Curtis has a reply in the thread. I haven't specifically asked anyone from HJB or F&S about the coin. With most staff at the NYINC show and dealing with all of the goings on with auctions and working with the public in person, most of the folks who know what's up with this are not in the office. Hopefully someone will let us know what happened.

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Old Jan 10, 2009, 09:11 PM   #15
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The silence is deafening regarding this BOC/fake Gemini sale. I know people are busy, but from a P.R. standpoint the longer this remains unexplained the worse it looks.
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