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Forgery Alerts Reports and discussion regarding possible forgeries.

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Old Apr 14, 2009, 12:47 PM   #16
BeastCoins
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Originally Posted by hydatius View Post
I have three photos of the fake Beast posted (though I have only posted one of them at Forum, I notice, with a note about the proper obverse and reverse finally being linked; attached below).

I hate hate to differ with other members of the discussion, but it's not that hard to see from style alone that this one is a dud.

Richard
Thanks Richard. I PM'ed you asking for your input as you and Marc Poncin are the most in-depth late Roman gold guys I know. Glad you had other examples of the Theodosius variety and I should have immediately known it was bad when I saw it. That's why the reverse die image stuck in my head - something didn't seem right. Glad you were around to confirm with more examples from the "wild". I'm humbled by your diligence and vast expertise

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Old Apr 14, 2009, 04:12 PM   #17
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Zach

Don't be too hard on yourself.

I just learned that my Lysimichos was also a victim of some extreme altering. I am beside myself with embarrassment.

I have included the before and after pictures.

Who knew you could do this to a coin?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lysi small.JPG (23.3 KB, 135 views)
File Type: jpg ob.JPG (13.5 KB, 134 views)
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Old Apr 14, 2009, 06:36 PM   #18
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There was a thread on Forum 2 years ago about a coin Jeff (cogito) recognized as a plate coin which someone artfully repaired. They did major work on a die defect that made for a horrible nose on the portrait. The coin was silver and the repair work was undetectable if not for the pre-repaired picture.

HJB was selling the coin and returned it to the the original seller (whom they bought it from at the Chicago coin fair).

I guess anything is possible in the hands of a talented person.

BR

Mark

Well, let's hope that we don't get coins that have had plastic surgery. I guess in many instances, unless it's stated or someone investigates there is no way to know if a coin has been fixed. Btw, do you remember this one:

http://www.geminiauction.com/details.asp?LotNumber=690

It looked pretty much flawless in person. In that case it was noted that it was repaired, and the price reflected it. Who knows if that will be the case with this coin many years from now though.
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 03:47 AM   #19
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That looks like a great restoration job indeed. I guess the properties of gold is what make this possible. Are there any examples of silver coin modification along these lines? It would seem harder to do, especially if there is toning involved, but few things are impossible in this "business".
How's this for a silver repair?

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=255&Lot=202

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/harlan...dProduct=14378

Evidently the coin fairies that do this kind of work don't come cheap!

Ben
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 06:20 AM   #20
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How's this for a silver repair?

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=255&Lot=202

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/harlan...dProduct=14378

Evidently the coin fairies that do this kind of work don't come cheap!

Ben
And it goes from gVF to Near Mint.

I am wondering if maybe these coins are merely being kept Near a Mint.
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 09:55 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Congius View Post
How's this for a silver repair?

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=255&Lot=202

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/harlan...dProduct=14378

Evidently the coin fairies that do this kind of work don't come cheap!

Ben

No kidding. In any case, that would be some serious return on investment, no matter what the coin fairies charge. Even in the NAC auction listing with the scratch it says "Scratch on cheekbone and restauration on cheek, otherwise good very fine". This coin has been through a lot.



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And it goes from gVF to Near Mint.

I am wondering if maybe these coins are merely being kept Near a Mint.
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Old Apr 16, 2009, 08:22 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by hydatius View Post
I have three photos of the fake Beast posted (though I have only posted one of them at Forum, I notice, with a note about the proper obverse and reverse finally being linked; attached below).

I hate hate to differ with other members of the discussion, but it's not that hard to see from style alone that this one is a dud.

Richard
I agree with Richard. Look at this one from Freeman & Sear
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=194&Lot=778



and this one from Rauch
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...D=196&Lot=2549

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Old Apr 17, 2009, 01:37 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by GMoneti View Post
No kidding. In any case, that would be some serious return on investment, no matter what the coin fairies charge. Even in the NAC auction listing with the scratch it says "Scratch on cheekbone and restauration on cheek, otherwise good very fine". This coin has been through a lot.





A seller that thinks of themselves as reputable should refuse to deal in coins like these or AT LEAST provide the before picture, even if they didn't do the work themselves. After all, it's not hard to find. It's still an ancient coin and I don't expect it to be thrown away but that's not full disclosure. The fact that after the coin was vandalized the price increased by 500% shows what a shady business this can be.

Here's another example of a repaired gold coin:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/boa...?topic=52767.0

Last edited by areich : Apr 17, 2009 at 08:03 AM. Reason: removed 'clue' to seller's name
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Old Apr 17, 2009, 06:19 AM   #24
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I never would have thought to look for these on CoinArchives! Thanks, Cliff. Notice that there are two versions of this fake: a clearly fake version with beading around the outside of the obverse, and a more 'authentic' looking one without the beading. The obverses are otherwise identical. The original BoC version lacks the beading.

Richard
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Old Apr 17, 2009, 08:54 AM   #25
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I agree with Richard.
O.k., if Richard and Cliff think these are such obvious fakes, that certainly says something about all of us dealers and collectors who have bought these as authentic. At least I figured mine out and fessed up within a week of having mine since I too thought it looked a bit odd. But still, no one else started a thread here about these high-grade fakes until now, even though they are so "obvious"? Richard mentioned he did post something on Forvm two years ago, and I believe him since he is a hard-core student of late Roman gold and I respect his opinion on the topic far more than the decent amount of work I've done on the subject. Still, this one got by me for a week and apparently also got by Freeman and Sear and Rauch at auction, plus who knows how many direct sales of just regular dealer inventory. I still think for most dealers this is a dangerous fake and especially so since most dealers will never see this discussion.

--Beast
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Old Apr 17, 2009, 09:49 AM   #26
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I'm not trying to claim clairvoyance or anything. The obverse isn't bad, mainly because there can be so much variation in the early issues of Theodosius, but the reverse for me is stylistically hopeless. I have a specimen of the Julian from this set (see below) and it is clearly fake in hand, though not so from a photo (I suspect it is a cast), and specimens were sold by Freeman and Sear in 2006 and Stack's in 2008 (the latter for $2,500!) (though the Stack's specimen has had the hair newly retooled (on the mould/die) in wild, clearly fake way: see below with comparison of normal type; note the further excessive retooling of the cloak and fibula). I just don't think people are paying attention to these types, which are THE most common late Roman gold forgeries around, bar none.

BTW Saxby's has posted another fake solidus from the 'set of five' so-called 'Beruit' forgeries of Julian, Val I and II, Theodosius I, and Honorius, this time the Val I. There has been no reply to my first e-mails so he knows d**n well what he's doing. I guess the Honorius/Theodosius mismatch makes it a set of six.

Richard
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File Type: jpg Julian-4.jpg (16.2 KB, 48 views)
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Old Apr 17, 2009, 12:05 PM   #27
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O.k., if Richard and Cliff think these are such obvious fakes, that certainly says something about all of us dealers and collectors who have bought these as authentic. ..... Still, this one got by me for a week and apparently also got by Freeman and Sear and Rauch at auction, plus who knows how many direct sales of just regular dealer inventory. I still think for most dealers this is a dangerous fake and especially so since most dealers will never see this discussion.

--Beast
I thought the irony of my post might be evident because I used images from coinarchives - not exactly a place that one looks for obvious fakes. Oh well.......
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