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Forgery Alerts Reports and discussion regarding possible forgeries.

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Old Apr 5, 2007, 01:35 PM   #46
Arthur Brand
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Originally Posted by Volodya View Post
Art, you have my profound sympathy. It must be awful being you, trapped in your personal "Ground Hog's Day", forced to repeat the same talking points ad nauseum. I'll go back to watching paint dry; more happens.

Phil

Why didnīt you show up here when I attacked the Gemini-fake at your auction? I attacked that coin too.

"Ground Hog's Day" btw is a great movie, no joking.
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Old Apr 5, 2007, 04:11 PM   #47
Arthur Brand
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Dear experts,

Glad that I am a tourist in your world. Of course I am always wrong, like with the carchemish-hoard, the fake CNG-deka, the Borisov-connection, with the Naxos from Gorny etc etc.
I am always wrong.

So do not pay attention to my worthless posts and bid your heart out at Baldwins. I hope that this beautiful Fekadrachm makes a million+ $.

Yous sincerely,

Atu ignorantus
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Old Apr 5, 2007, 04:34 PM   #48
Volodya
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Dear experts,
Glad that I am a tourist in your world. Of course I am always wrong, like with the carchemish-hoard, the fake CNG-deka, the Borisov-connection, with the Naxos from Gorny etc etc.
I am always wrong.
So do not pay attention to my worthless posts and bid your heart out at Baldwins. I hope that this beautiful Fekadrachm makes a million+ $.
Yous sincerely,
Atu ignorantus
Oh, I imagine your informants feed you some legitimate information. Any double agent needs to supply his ostensible employers some credible intelligence to stay credible him (or her) self. Your problem is that you have no internal filters; whatever you're told, you pass on, indiscriminately. It's pathetic really, and comical; you're so desperate to be a big shot, to be in the know, that you allow yourself to be used by unnamed persons whose agenda is very different than yours.

You're still my hero Art; I do want to emulate you. You enjoy beating your head against a brick wall, so I'll try it too: What is your current thinking about the Messana Hoard? When can we expect a scan of the English translation of your book?

Phil

ps-- I just realized I've been typing "Messagne Hoard" rather than "Messana Hoard". Those who know what the former is will understand why it's an easy slip of the tongue for me in particular. I'm going to go back and fix it, but if I've confused you Art, I am sorry. You know what I mean now, anyway.
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Old Apr 5, 2007, 04:40 PM   #49
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Thanks Phil,

I spent 30 minutes trying to figure out what Art could have said about the Messagne hoard.

No longer confused.

Barry
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Old Apr 5, 2007, 05:27 PM   #50
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Thank God I committed suicide after Jeffs posts, because this would be agonizing in a corporeal state.

I haven't learned much in a tangible sense as to why this is or is not genuine.

Besides the hearsay (and Art, it does sound like hearsay) there is the concern that there is low relief. Is it possible this coin is not well struck because the large die and the speculated numerous die breaks with Deka's (see auction write-up) led them to strike lighter for this coin?

Stylistically, the write up suggests that these coins were struck over 30 to 40 years with a progressive change in style. If correct, then how can any minor style deviations lead to a confident condemnation.

On the other hand, without good provenance, how can anyone feel confident this is genuine with so few samples and so many stylsitic variables?

Can the relevant parties here give a little scholarly insight and resist the urge to throwdown?

The only thing I can say confidently from this thread is that Jeff hurts my head when he drags me back to grad school flashbacks with his reasearchers vernacular.

BR

Mark
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Old Apr 5, 2007, 05:47 PM   #51
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Mark,

The only one who has said fake or authentic is Art, and he won't provide any evidence other than so and so told him it was fake and he has it on tape. Art has said that Andrew Meadows thought it was fake then changed his mind. He's also said that Fischer-Bossert thinks it's real. And evidently the experts at Baldwin's thinks it's authentic. Whether any of them are qualified to authenticate an Athens Dekadrachm I couldn't say. Maybe they are, maybe not.

Concerning Baldwin's dating of this coin to the 430's that seems hightly speculative to me. No one has yet determined the sequence of the post 449 owls and to date this coin based on similarities to a certain issue of tets seems silly. It also appears (I haven't checked) that Baldwins is using the dates as given in Svoronos which are outdated today.

I've only seen a scan of the catalog at this point so my comments should be taken with that in mind. Comparing the Baldwin specimen with the examples in Svoronos, the Dekadrachm Hoard and Starr, the relief does look to be unusually low. The revese die on the surface looks like the same as the Triton specimen, but upon close inspection it's either a different die or a derivative of the Triton die. The bottom edge of the reverse die is a bit bothersome to me, not being perfectly square, and it doesn't really look like the die broke in this spot. The incuse also seems to be a bit shallow and the edges aren't very sharp. I have a scan of a black and white photo so I can't really tell what the surfaces and luster look like. I have no real opinion of this coin having not seen it in the flesh.

Barry Murphy
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Old Apr 5, 2007, 06:01 PM   #52
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Thanks Phil,
I spent 30 minutes trying to figure out what Art could have said about the Messagne hoard.
No longer confused.
Barry
Sorry Barry, sometimes I confuse myself! At least I make my own dumb mistakes.

Phil
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Old Apr 5, 2007, 06:35 PM   #53
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Barry,

There are verifiable signs of authenticity and verifiable signs of fakery, right?

I'm not suggesting that we should exclude examination of one over the other, only that the weight of verifiable authenticity signs should outweigh signs of fakery and for super expensive, important coins the balance of the authenticity/fakery equation should be solidly in the authentic column.

BTW - I recently attended a molecular imaging conference here at my institution and there was talk of using neutron emission spectroscopy to authenticate artifacts by measuring the elemental constituents of reference patinae. My ears piqued upon hearing this and I chatted for quite some time with the colleague using the technique and whether it could be used on ancient coins. His response was yes, and the positive is the non-destructive nature of the imaging technique. I may explore this further and could envision scanning a few authentic and fake examples of the same coin type. These would yield reference spectrographic charts for the elements of the authentic coin relative to the fake.

Jeff
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Old Apr 6, 2007, 04:15 AM   #54
Arthur Brand
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the relief does look to be unusually low
Thatīs the give- away in this case.

Art
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Old Apr 6, 2007, 04:58 AM   #55
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Mark,

I have a scan of a black and white photo so I can't really tell what the surfaces and luster look like. I have no real opinion of this coin having not seen it in the flesh.

Barry Murphy
Here it is in colour
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Old Apr 6, 2007, 10:49 AM   #56
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The low relief does really catch your eye if you have seen other samples of this coin. I hardly qualify as an expert in this matter. But the coin does have a different look to it as compared to the other recent samples on the market. Additionally the designs on Athena's helmet also look flat and dull.
Ronn
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Old Apr 6, 2007, 02:46 PM   #57
Arthur Brand
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The low relief does really catch your eye if you have seen other samples of this coin.
Here are the Dekas from Elmali-hoard, for comparison:

http://www.michelvanrijn.nl/artnews/DEKAAAAS.htm

Art
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Old Apr 6, 2007, 10:02 PM   #58
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Art, I have no idea who you are, but I have been following this discussion. I don't know what you do, or why you do it, but you obviously think you are pretty important. Just from reading your posts, filled with blatant sarcasm and self-importance I couldn't in good faith continue to keep shut: You are so full of it. I can't even believe how much you love yourself, its sick. Please, stop acting like a 8th grader who just won the football game, for gods sake, its rediculous. This is not an attack on your character, only on the way you are conducting this converstation, and its the last I will say.

Darrell
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Old Apr 7, 2007, 02:44 AM   #59
Arthur Brand
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Art, I have no idea who you are, but I have been following this discussion. I don't know what you do, or why you do it, but you obviously think you are pretty important. Just from reading your posts, filled with blatant sarcasm and self-importance I couldn't in good faith continue to keep shut: You are so full of it. I can't even believe how much you love yourself, its sick. Please, stop acting like a 8th grader who just won the football game, for gods sake, its rediculous. This is not an attack on your character, only on the way you are conducting this converstation, and its the last I will say.

Darrell
Hi aussie,

I understand that you have this impression of me.
But my criticasters, there are a lot of them, put me in this position. They always and everywhere try to paint me as an idiot whoīs opinion doesnīt count. Not only here but in all the groups.
Thatīs why I am forced to react like this, for the newbies here, so that they can decide for themselves.
The only thing for me what counts is that none of my fellow-collectors buy this Deka without knowing that itīs a fake.
Thatīs all

Art
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Old Apr 7, 2007, 07:47 AM   #60
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Art,

Hey, I've been following this thread, but have been a little confused. I see clearly that you have a large and prolific background in finding fakes on the market, but what exactly do you do? Is this your job or just a 'hobby'? I'd just like to know as its very interesting to me and you seem to know a lot about fakes.

Jon
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