Gemini stater?

[4to2centophilia]

Originally Posted by ibex-coins

Finally, I now have even more respect for Beast than ever before. Not only do I respect his well thought out post, and his numismatic knowledge, but I agree I would rather deal with Shanna's bright and lovely face anyday over Harlan's stern glare.

While Shanna was wonderfully indulgent with my repeated viewings, and Harlan was quite affable, I think Phil Davis' insights and opinions were down right sexy.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[numismo]

Thanks for the personal attack RG. No real surprise coming from you, but is it really NECESSARY?
I simply asked you to substantiate your apparently baseless allegations and fanciful statements and hypotheses and instead of an intelligent response addressing the matter, you attack me personally.

In other words, secrecy. Walter Holt wants everybody to just let the dealer take care of it.
- I did not make any such statement - you are a liar and a deceiver RG. Do you still claim that you do not slander or libel anyone? Shame on you.

Walter Holt is a dealer, after all.
- Are you saying that because I occasionally sell coins that I must therefore be biased in some way? If so, you disgust me with your thinly veiled attack on my integrity. Are you also saying that because someone is a dealer that they must somehow be biased or compromised? How can you still claim that you are NOT casting aspersions on my character and attacking the good name of others? Shame on you. If this is not the case, then please explain what exactly you meant, or inferred, by "is a dealer, after all".

Walter Holt also has a reading comprehension problem.
- Another unnecessary personal attack. You are a liar and a deceiver. Shame on you.

Not once, not one time, did I say that I knew that such and such bad thing was happening in this case, not once did I accuse anyone of wrongdoing. Yet he keeps on saying, What's your proof, how do you know, you think the sky is falling, you're a conspiracy theorist, you're attacking me, yadayadayada.

Originally Posted by reidgold

That this hasn't been discussed publicly is all a part of the tradition in numismatics to hush-hush situations like this, to avoid airing dirty laundry. But this lack of openness winds up hurting innocents, such as some future buyer of this fake after it gets returned to the consignor who may buy it as authentic in a much less visible venue.

- What exactly are you trying to say here then? I ask again: what dirty laundry (or are you making unfounded allegations)? What innocents (or are you stating something you cannot in any way substantiate)? What are these things that are being “hush-hushed” (or are you making false statements solely for effect)? What is this “tradition” you speak of (or are you making stuff up)? Please SUBSTANTIATE your vicious attacks on dealers and the industry generally or withdraw your unfounded and baseless comments. Otherwise it is YOU who is deceiving and misdirecting the collecting public.

Why should collectors intrude on a dealer's private business. If the dealer wants to do what other dealers have done, keep it secret, why that's his right, by gum.
- Exactly. No one has the right to demand anything about anyone’s PRIVATE BUSINESS. And yet you make the above statement. If you are not, with this (above quoted) unsubstantiated statement, demanding a response, then what is its purpose? On one hand you state a dealer's private business is his right to keep, and on the other you make an outrageous statement designed to garner a response, to be addressed, lest it be left to stand as if it were factual. No intelligent person would believe it to be intended otherwise. Be honest, cease your deception and obfuscation, tell us precisely what you meant and explain your intentions. Please be honest.

What we also know is what has happened in the past. What we do know is that some fortunately small percentage of dealers/auctioneers don't withdraw forgeries until the auction itself so as to not admit publicly that they inadvertently let a forgery into their catalog, and in these cases these forgeries can get recorded as authentic coins that went unsold.
- Forgive my ignorance, but please give an example of this. Please substantiate your statement with some evidence so that I may be able to enjoy an enlightened level of knowledge with regards to this matter. You have made an allegation of some seriousness, and I would like to know who did such a thing so that I, too, may wave my finger at these people. Can you do that? Or are you just making this up for dramatic effect? Please help me by clarifying this.

We also know that some perhaps even smaller percentage of dealers don't withdraw blatant forgeries, period, as was shown again recently with a very public forgery that was on an auction catalog cover.
- Again, I don’t recall seeing this (on the cover! wow, must have missed this one - or forgot it). Mea culpa. Please remind us of this latest example, and since you said “some” and “again” (ie: more than one, more than once) please provide some substance to this allegation of the previous cases to which you refer. Can you do that?

And we know that in some significant percentage of cases, forgeries when caught aren't taken off the market but move backward in the chain of supply, with dealers trying to get their money back, until the forgeries reach those responsible for them.
- What, exactly, is wrong with trying to get your money back from the person who sold you a coin that turned out to be fake? Surely you are not saying that a dealer, or a collector, should get stuck with a fake when it is revealed? Are you? Is this REALLY what you are saying? Are we NOT entitled to a refund in these matters? Whether dealer or collector? Is this REALLY what you are saying? Please explain.
- Also, what exactly is a "significant percentage of cases"?

But it has been shown that forgeries, high end as well as low value, have reentered the market after being returned to those responsible for them.
- “It has been shown”. What has been shown? Please substantiate this claim with evidence, any evidence.

So Walter Holt doesn't further go off his rocker and make more loony accusations, what's happening here is not dealer bashing.
- “further go off his rocker”, “loony accusations” - not sure I really need to comment on this. Thanks for another personal attack.

Once again you prove what sort of character you are. I ask you to substantiate what you say by way of tangible evidence, and the personal attacks begin. I am met with vitriol and malevolence. You clearly want to deceive, though I cannot imagine why. Are you a liar, ignorant, or some combination of the two? I didn't know where to begin in tearing apart your scurrilous accusations and falsehoods.
Typically, you attack me, fail to substantiate anything you said, tell lies whilst doing so, and still you do not speak to the facts of the matter.
The moderators should, and perhaps I should demand this, remove your post, remove your attacks on me, and ban you. An apology would also be a good start.

Walter Holt

An interesting link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_words

[reidgold]

I retract what I said about this thread not being a flamewar. It now is, in a funny, hypocritical way. But the way things are now, it won't be fun for long. So I'm going to exit this thread, now, and this should help.

[cogito]

Civility please. I'd like to think that we're a different breed...those congregated around this forum.

So, assuming that we don't get a resolution or explanation regarding the Gemini sale, can we at least address whether the coin in question is fake or not?

As it stands, it sounds like Barry thinks it is fake, while Tkalec thinks it's authentic. HJB apparently reversed themselves and the buyer in question thinks it is authentic enough to plunk down serious change. What of the original BOC authors who thought it was fake? I know Tkalec thinks they made a mistake, but this doesn't mean much unless we hear both sides. Any news or word from those who originally thought (think) the coin is fake?

Jeff

[4to2centophilia]

Originally Posted by curtislclay

Silvia Hurter and Alan Walker, formerly the chief experts at Bank Leu's numismatic department.

BTW Silvia Hurter passed away 2 weeks after you posted this.

[ibex-coins]

First I want to say how sorry I am for the passing of Silvia Hurter, but upon reading 4to2centophilia's posting I couldn' help but imagining for a moment that this could be the start of another conspiracy theory by MVR. Should Alan Walker hire a security guard. Is there a plot to silence all of those who would help discover the truth behind this coin?

[cogito]

Before others decide to fall into paranoia, it would be best to just find out if Walker or Hurter reversed their BOC opinion regarding the coin. I'm still wanting to know if there was a BOC reversal or both parties at Gemini decided to ignore the BOC findings.

Also, it's still unclear why it was necessary to re-insert the coin into Gemini rather than a private sale.

Jeff

[ibex-coins]

Just to clarify, my post was not meant to be serious about a conspiracy, but I am sincerely sorry for the loss of Silvia Hurter and the family of Silvia

[cogito]

To continue this thread and issue, look what favorite auction results archive has the fake AV in question and listed without any notice of the questionable nature of the sale (i.e., BOC listing, withdrawal from sale, then relisting at the last minute).

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=358&Lot=604

Has anyone heard from Alan Walker about the coin and his (and maybe Silva Hurter's) reversal of opinion? Did they differ in opinion about the coin?

Jeff

[esnible]

Robert Matthew quotes a HJB representative as saying "... we had a number of fellow IAPN members look at the coin. Most, about eighty percent thought it was genuine but not everybody."

http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/...11.html#stater

[cogito]

That's a great site, Ed. Thanks for the link!

I guess what bothers me most about this whole affair is the reinsertion of the coin in Gemini. If the parties involved wanted to make a sale, then it need not be done through Gemini...unless, of course, one of the benefits the buyer was wanting was the provenance afforded by being a "Gemini" coin.

Jeff

[Molinari]

Hi,

I didn't see this in any of the other postings, so I thought I would add it.

http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset....d=Knx6HMaNKYY=

Glad my first post on ancients-info could be part of such an interesting discussion.

Best,

Nick

[cogito]

Welcome!

J

[gibfrog]

Originally Posted by numismo

Quote:
Originally Posted by reidgold
And here's one reason that makes the above scenario more likely: Because this published fake wasn't withdrawn before the auction's close, the transaction may get recorded by the online coin archiving services . . .
- How do you know? You have NO IDEA, nor any EVIDENCE. Have you asked ANYONE whether this IS the case?

It may thus get recorded as an authentic coin sold by a reputable auction house.
- Again, how do you know? You have NO IDEA, nor any EVIDENCE.
........
" for me to suggest that an innocent may (notice how I used, then as now, the word "may") get cheated with his piece down the road[/i].
- Again, purely hypothetical and unsubstantiated. Again, what "innocents"? What "future buyer"? You don't even know IF it has been sold.
.......
Blah blah blah blah - something typically hypothetical and unsubstantiated.
Blah blah blah, I haven't bothered to find out for myself.
Conspiracy theory, the sky is falling, blah, blah, blah, . . . .
__________

To answer Beast's far more cogent and intelligent post, I have no problem with the questions being asked, but I do have a problem with wild and fantastic theories being stated in such a way as to be interpreted as fact. These aren't answers to questions, this is wild speculation of no value whatsoever. I also have a problem with things getting out of hand like this before anyone involved in the matter has had a say.
Lets ask these questions, but have the people involved answer them, not have people who have no idea AT ALL responding with their bizarre hypotheticals and unsubstantiated assumptions and conjecture. It is worthless.

Walter Holt

An interesting link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_words

Mr Holt:

I am not a friend of rg. Here is the PERMENANT independant online archive of this sale.
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=358&Lot=604
which, if someone does not access the http://www.forgerynetwork.com/asset....d=Knx6HMaNKYY= listing of have access to the the BOC hard copies, seem to indicate that this coin is authentic and sold for $100,000 + juice.

This coin is currently in Dr H Lanz's vault, so it was sold.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoinFo.../message/25806
"OK, I have the coin in question in my vault and have not come to a
final conclusion"

[gibfrog]

Originally Posted by numismo

Thanks for the personal attack RG. No real surprise coming from you, but is it really NECESSARY?
I simply asked you to substantiate your apparently baseless allegations and fanciful statements and hypotheses and instead of an intelligent response addressing the matter, you attack me personally.
.....
What we also know is what has happened in the past. What we do know is that some fortunately small percentage of dealers/auctioneers don't withdraw forgeries until the auction itself so as to not admit publicly that they inadvertently let a forgery into their catalog, and in these cases these forgeries can get recorded as authentic coins that went unsold.
- Forgive my ignorance, but please give an example of this. Please substantiate your statement with some evidence so that I may be able to enjoy an enlightened level of knowledge with regards to this matter. You have made an allegation of some seriousness, and I would like to know who did such a thing so that I, too, may wave my finger at these people. Can you do that? Or are you just making this up for dramatic effect? Please help me by clarifying this.
.....

Walter Holt

An interesting link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_words

Mr Holt:

Here are three interesting coinarchive listings of UNSOLD copies of a cast fake Pertinax Providentia Denarius

1) Gorny & Mosch Giessener Münzhandlung, Auction 176, Lot number: 2364, Price realized: Unsold
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...D=373&Lot=2364

2) Jean Elsen & ses Fils S.A. , Auction 97, Lot number: 250, Price realized: Unsold
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=330&Lot=250

3) Numismatik Lanz München, Auction 112, Lot number: 571, Price realized: Unsold
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...cID=43&Lot=571
Edited note: Dr Lanz now clearly labels his unsold forgeries as withdrawn
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=198&Lot=346

then of course there are some of the copies of this cast fake that sold as authentic

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...D=211&Lot=9234 Kunker

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=180&Lot=978 Astarte S.A.

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...D=128&Lot=2672 Gorny & Mosch

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...D=101&Lot=2184 Gorny & Mosch

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=63&Lot=2552 Gorny & Mosch