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Old Feb 10, 2011, 04:41 PM   #16
djmacdo
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Moving along

Good news and bad news. Good: Got my computer up grade so I will be able to burn a cd. Found my Calciati. It has smaller pages than I remembered. I was remembering page size on his work on Sicilian bronzes. I shall start copying at least ten pages of Calciati on Corinthians a night. Shall I start at the beginning, with the staters with the incuse reverses, or are you only interested in those with the head of Athena or Armed Aphrodite, which ever interpretation you like? Caliciati lists many minor varieties that are probably just meaningless die variations of the major type.


Bad: I cannot find my Ravel. I have either put t some place clever or given it away. I shall keep looking. Probably around here somewhere.

Mac
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Old Feb 11, 2011, 12:05 AM   #17
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Smile Thanks

Hi Mac,

If it's not too much trouble I would appreciate it all. Calciati's Pegasi is the priority, the Ravel can wait as long as you need! I don't want you burning midnight oil on my behalf, I feel bad enough as it is!

Thanks, thanks and once more with feeling THANK YOU,

John.
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Old Feb 11, 2011, 12:30 AM   #18
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Thumbs up Thanks to you also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esnible View Post
Do you have the BCD auction catalogs? I'm thinking of Numismatik Lanz, Münzen von Korinth: Sammlung BCD. Auction 105, 26 November 2001 and Münzen & Medaillen (Deutschland). Sammlung BCD : Akarnanien und Aetolien. Auction 23, 18 October 2007.

There is a lot of really useful information in those and also lots of pictures of colts from some rare cities.

Also I assume you've seen the list of cities in the Historia Numorum with the links I put up http://snible.org/coins/hn/corinthia.html . (Hope the links still work, haven't tried them lately).
Hi Ed,

The link does still work, I must admit that reading this page of yours was what originally sent me off on this current quest. That is why I quoted you on the first page as a reference, I had no idea however that it was going to be such a mammoth task.

These Athena/Pegasus staters have hundreds of variations from dozens of different sources, it would be a lifetimes work to catalog them all and, at my age, most of my lifetime is behind me! However, now that I have started it is too late to stop.

In answer to your other question, no, I have only been a collector for 2 years and initially floundered around in early Roman with no real direction. I finally settled on Augustus as a singularity but then I discovered the Syracuse Greeks. The rest (pardon the pun) is history and I have acquired a few good reference books but the catalogs from before 2009 I do not have. The Lanz & CNG sites are excellent for their look-up facilities on Research and have been my main cross checking tool thus far but there are many gaps. That is why I am rapt that Mac is assisting me with a copy of the Calciati.

It annoyed me that almost all sellers of coins use references that I could not see which is why I started this project in the first place. How can I verify what I am told when I don't have access to the books that are being quoted?

Thank you for your interest and input and also for giving me a leg-up start with your web site.

Regards to all,

John.
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Old Feb 11, 2011, 02:06 PM   #19
esnible
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Calciati's _Pegasi_ is pretty amazing. He illustrates symbols that have not appeared at auction in many years.

Do you know about the ANA library? After joining the ANA ($28 w/o the magazine) they will mail you any book in their library. You pay only for postage in both directions. And they have both Calciati and Ravel!

It is very kind of Mac to copy Pegasi for you. When I did the Historia Numorum project I did not have the patience to put the book on my own flatbed scanner. (I sent it to Toronto where it was disbound and run through a high-speed scanner for $200.) One day I will build my own version of the kind of scanner Google uses, as these people have done: http://www.diybookscanner.org/

It is unfortunate that Calciati and other authors don't make PDFs and sell them for $20 when their books go out-of-print. It is unfortunate that numismatics is done by so few as to make the financial rewards low, although if another million collectors joined in it might make the books cheaper but put the coins out of reach!
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Old Feb 12, 2011, 02:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolius View Post
Hi George,

That is a very interesting stater! The basic coin is from Akarnania, Thyrrheion noted by "theta" under Pegasus.

The reverse is interesting with a Y and pendant earring behind Athena, it dates from approx 320 BC. However, the star on Athena's Corinthian Helmet has got me beat! I suspect it may be a later addition but I must admit that I really don't know. Anybody got a clue?

This image will end up on the web site shortly if that is OK with you.

BR,

John
I absolutely agree. Thanks for the comments. You are more than welcome to add the coin to your website.

KR,

George
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Old Feb 12, 2011, 06:52 PM   #21
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I absolutely agree. Thanks for the comments. You are more than welcome to add the coin to your website.

KR,

George
Hi,

I am reliably informed that the star on Athena's helmet is, possibly, a Black Sea counter-mark. I cannot find anything that verifies this but maybe you can remember from whence you obtained it & we could do a research look-up.

By the by, the coin is now on the Akarnania Page - Thanks.

BR,

John.
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Old Feb 12, 2011, 07:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolius View Post
Hi,

I am reliably informed that the star on Athena's helmet is, possibly, a Black Sea counter-mark. I cannot find anything that verifies this but maybe you can remember from whence you obtained it & we could do a research look-up.

By the by, the coin is now on the Akarnania Page - Thanks.

BR,

John.
You can find this countermark on Bosporus coins. Here is one example, but there are others

http://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=98300
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Old Feb 13, 2011, 05:38 AM   #23
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More on the countermark: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina_Sun
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Old Feb 16, 2011, 05:18 PM   #24
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Star countermark

I do not think the star coutnermark on the Corinthian stater can be connected to to star countermark on the coins of the Bosporus. The Bosporus countermark is considerably later and looks somewhat different, and Corinthian staters, while wide-spread, so not seem to have circulated in the area of the Bosporan kingdom.
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Old Feb 17, 2011, 04:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmacdo View Post
I do not think the star countermark on the Corinthian stater can be connected to to star countermark on the coins of the Bosporus. The Bosporus countermark is considerably later and looks somewhat different, and Corinthian staters, while wide-spread, do not seem to have circulated in the area of the Bosporan kingdom.
So, if not the Bosporus then where? Who else did radiant star countermarks.

Regards, John.
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Old Feb 17, 2011, 04:47 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmacdo View Post
I do not think the star coutnermark on the Corinthian stater can be connected to to star countermark on the coins of the Bosporus. The Bosporus countermark is considerably later and looks somewhat different, and Corinthian staters, while wide-spread, so not seem to have circulated in the area of the Bosporan kingdom.
Part of the question is when the c/m was placed on the coin. That is not necessarily the same as when the coin was made. Another question is how similar two marks have to be for them to be a match. Answers to these questions might change how we view this question and how my coins below relate to the question. Both appear to be bronzes of Pantikapion Sear 1701 dated to the 4th Century BC ("considerably later"???). I have no idea when the marks were applied. The odd part of these two coins, in my view, is that the smaller of the two (AE18 bottom) appears to have been made with the c/m as part of the design rather than applied later. The dealer I got them from in 1991 was selling them with this note and had several all with identical placement of the mark while the top coin with conventional marks showed variations in the placements. Still that does not mean that either mark was from the 4th century.

Did anyone else get a set of these coins back in ~1991?

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Old Feb 19, 2011, 03:12 PM   #27
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Star countermark

The Bosporan mark is very specific to the issue of Bosporan bronze coins with the head of a Satyr on the obverse and the lion head on the reverse. You might notice that the star mark is actually a double-sided countermark, applied with two hinged dies. The reverse is countermarked with a raised bow in a bow case. The Satyr/Lion coins were called in, demonetized, and remonetized with the countermark to remonetize it. Of course, the government collected a fee for that. The countermark coins were subsequently demonestized and remonetized again for a fee, this time by overstriking them with the the types of a Satyr head on the obverse and a bow and arrow on the reverse. The star mark is found only on the Satyr/Lion coins at the Bosporus. This pattern of countermarking or overstriking series of bronze coins essentially constituted a tax on the bronze coins in circulation.

I shall check Calciati to see if he has a mention of the star countermark, which to my eye is a lot different in form and use than the Bosporan countermark. The symbol of the countermark is actually fairly common. The star is particularly associated with Macedonia and, indeed, is national symbol of the modern nation of Macedonia.

More when I check Calciati.
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Old Feb 19, 2011, 03:22 PM   #28
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Thyrrheium countermarks

Calciati has two Thyrrheium Corinthian-type staters with countemarks on the helmet. One really is not clear enough to be certain what it is, the other is a sea shell. I shall keep open my eyes in Calciati's two vols. for other countermarks. I have the feeling I have see the star countermark on some other Corinthian stater some time, some place, but I am not sure where. I shall keep looking.

Mac
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Old Feb 20, 2011, 05:02 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmacdo View Post
Calciati has two Thyrrheium Corinthian-type staters with countemarks on the helmet. One really is not clear enough to be certain what it is, the other is a sea shell. I shall keep open my eyes in Calciati's two vols. for other countermarks. I have the feeling I have see the star countermark on some other Corinthian stater some time, some place, but I am not sure where. I shall keep looking.

Mac
I had a word with my brother who knows things better than I do and he agrees that it is not a Black sea countermark for the same reasons pointed out by Mac. He believes it is a countermark of Itanos, Crete. You can find the eight pointed star in many of their staters and drachms. He told me that one was reported in The Numismatist, VOLUME XXIX, 1916 by Sir Arthur Evans. The article is available online as well.

"November 18. Sir Arthur Evans, President, in the chair.

Sir John Fox Dillon, Bart, and Messrs. C. W. Dyson Perrins and A. W. Pey-
ser were elected Fellows of the Society.

Exhibitions: By the President— A didrachm of Terina (Obv., Regling, PI.
I ff. Rev., PI. Ill ccc), struck over one of Croton with eagle and spray; two
didrachms of Caulonia (Carelli, PI. CLXXXVIII, 29), from the same obverse
and reverse die, the latter engraved on a die which seems to have been used for
some other purpose, and a pegasus of the Amphilochian Argos countermarked
on helmet with an eight-rayed star, the monetary badge of Itanos (found at
Alonides, Mylopatamo, Crete)."

Very interesting.

Best wishes,

George
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