"Invasion coinage" of Constantius

[jamesicus]

Originally Posted by Congius

.......... in general these class IIe/a/b, III style distinctions seem to exist along a continuum... one can pick examplars that highlight the progression, but others seem very much inbetween. I'm not sure that even with a very large sample set they would neatly cluster into groups and that one could therefore meaningfully tease distinct issues out of them. If it were me I'd attribute most of them the same and relegate the stylistic progression to a footnote that noted the distinctive early/middle/late styles.

Ben

I do like that approach, Ben -- attribution was getting far too complicated. I had been thinking along those lines myself:

Group I folles

LON mint mark and laureate heads

Intermediate Group - unmarked with Lugdunum style heads/busts and London style lettering
.......... (a) laureate heads
.......... (b) laureate and cuirassed busts

unmarked with cuirassed busts
......... (a) With small heads on tall necks
......... (b) With larger, elongated heads on shorter necks

unmarked with large, spread busts

---------------------------------------------

Unknown Continental Mint (Lyon workers?) issue -- RIC VI, (Lugdunum), 17a -- Class I
(possibly prepared for invasion usage)


LON mint mark issue --RIC VI, (Londinium), 1a -- Group I
Depicted on Plate 1, RIC VI


RIC VI, (Lugdunum), 17b -- Included here as a possible London Intermediate Group (a) issue
Depicted on Plate 3, RIC VI


RIC VI, (Londinium), 20 -- Included here as a possible London Intermediate Group (b) issue


RIC VI, (Londinium), 14 -- Group I, Class IIa - small head on long neck issue

James

[jamesicus]

Some images for comparison & depicting a GALERIUS Intermediate Group (London Mint) follis:

Intermediate Group - unmarked with Lugdunum style heads/busts and London style lettering
.......... (a) laureate heads
.......... (b) laureate and cuirassed busts

---------------------------------------------

FL VAL CONSTANTIVS NOB C .................................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI
CONSTANTIUS
Unknown Continental Mint (Lyon workers?) issue -- RIC VI, (Lugdunum), 17a -- Class I
(possibly prepared for invasion usage) -- EF condition coin


FL VAL CONSTANTIVS NOB C .................................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI
CONSTANTIUS
Unknown Continental Mint (Lyon workers?) issue -- RIC VI, (Lugdunum), 17a -- Class I
(possibly prepared for invasion usage) -- about VF condition coin from different dies


C VAL MAXIMIANVS NOB C .................................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI
GALERIUS
Unknown Continental Mint (Lyon workers?) issue -- RIC VI, (Lugdunum), 17b -- Class I
Depicted on Plate 3, RIC VI
(possibly prepared for invasion usage)


C VAL MAXIMIANVS NOB C .................................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI
GALERIUS
London Mint Intermediate Group (a) issue
Compare to Lugdunum 17b above -- this coin has a Lugdunum style bust and London Mint Lettering

James

[jamesicus]

IMP C MAXIMIANVS PF AVG .................................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI
MAXIMIAN HERCULIUS
Unknown Continental Mint (Lyon workers?) issue -- RIC VI, (Lugdunum), 14b -- Class I
Included here as a possible London Intermediate Group (a) issue.
This was struck using worn dies and/or is a well worn coin. The somewhat thicker (to my eye)
letterforms may mark this as an Intermediate Group type, although that attribution is uncertain.

James

[leetoone]

Originally Posted by jamesicus

IMP C MAXIMIANVS PF AVG .................................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI
MAXIMIAN HERCULIUS
Unknown Continental Mint (Lyon workers?) issue -- RIC VI, (Lugdunum), 14b -- Class I
Included here as a possible London Intermediate Group (a) issue.
This was struck using worn dies and/or is a well worn coin. The somewhat thicker (to my eye)
letterforms may mark this as an Intermediate Group type, although that attribution is uncertain.

James

Good evening James
I think I would stick with that as an "unknown continental mint" rather than intermediate London. Fully agree with the attributions given in your post of 28 June 2009.
Best wishes
Lee

[jamesicus]

Originally Posted by leetoone

Good evening James
I think I would stick with that as an "unknown continental mint" rather than intermediate London. Fully agree with the attributions given in your post of 28 June 2009.
Best wishes
Lee

Thank you for your (as usual) valued opinion, Lee.

James

[jamesicus]

THE NEW EMPIRE - mostly devoted to the historical events pertaining to Roman Britain that are discussed in this thread. I think it is a nicely done online facility that, while quoting many anecdotal references, is pleasingly presented and offers much useful information.

James

[jamesicus]

I have re-written my Roman Coin Inscriptional Lettering page to include some new Letterform rendering information (images) and updated information relating to the lettering found on the coinage discussed in this thread.

James

[gert]

I just stumbled on this interesting discussion. First of all, I would say that the Galerius coin that started this discussion - to my eye - not only has London-style lettering, but also a London-style portrait, but it's hard to exactly pin point why. I have also noticed that the style of these unmarked Lugdunum/'Continental mint' coins corresponds to later Lugdunum issues and even to earlier antoniniani.
Attached is a set of Unmarked Lyons folles for all tetrarchs from my stock photo archive.
Regards
Gert

[maridvnvm]

Such as the following coin of Diocletian with LA in exe on the reverse.
Martin

[jamesicus]

Thank you for posting the great photographs and information, Gert and Martin.

James

[jamesicus]

My apologies for not acknowledging your contribution to the discussion, Gert -- purely a mental lapse on my part (I rectified it by editing my previous post).

James

[numismo]

Hello all,
I hope you don't mind me imposing on this rather interesting thread with a related question regarding one of my own coins:

I have it simply as RIC London 14b, but if anyone wishes to better identify it then that would, of course, be very much appreciated.
Additionally, or perhaps alternatively, if someone can utilise it as evidence for a theory or to boost an argument, or even simply to add it to an existing group of images then I hope it can be put to good use.
Best wishes,

Walter Holt

[jamesicus]

Originally Posted by numismo

Hello all,
I hope you don't mind me imposing on this rather interesting thread with a related question regarding one of my own coins:

I have it simply as RIC London 14b, but if anyone wishes to better identify it then that would, of course, be very much appreciated.
Additionally, or perhaps alternatively, if someone can utilise it as evidence for a theory or to boost an argument, or even simply to add it to an existing

group of images then I hope it can be put to good use.
Best wishes,

Walter Holt

The more I study the RIC VI, Londinium, early Group I coinage, the murkier it is to me. I tend to subscribe to the hypothesis that much of this coinage was produced at the London Mint using British die engravers - formerly employed by the Carausius/Allectus London Mint - now supervised and/or mixed in with formerly Lugdunese/Unknown Continental Mint die engravers. Some issues have the often small Carausius/Allectus style portrait busts on long necks (described by Sutherland as "ugly") while others have busts reminiscent of the Lugdanese style. As we have seen previously in this discussion, there are also admixtures and intermediate styles (including inscriptional lettering). To the coin of Walter Holt: According to RIC VI, this early titulature of Galerius only occurs in two Londinium series, both in Group I: Group I (i) -- laureate head with LON mint mark in the exergue and Group I (ii), Class II -- laureate, cuirassed bust with small head on tall neck and no mint mark. On those counts this coin attributes to the latter series. What about the "small head on tall neck" feature? Oh, I don't know, to me that is more typified by ..........

Fl VAL CONSTANTIVS NOB C .................................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI
RIC VI, Londinium, 14a

..........of the same series. Note that the cuirass is depicted quite differently in the two attached photos. To me, the Walter Holt coin attribution should be accompanied by a note: possible Intermediate Group coin.

James

[jamesicus]

I can appreciate Sutherland's frustration as he grappled with orderly attribution of the early unmarked London Mint folles. He delved into such feature differences (introduction to the Londinium section of RIC VI) as obverse bust forms, reverse legend breaks and portrait laurel wreath ribbon forms as possible attribution determinants - but he seems not to have developed any reliable criteria. Note the laurel wreath ribbon differences on the two following examples ..........

MAXIMIANVS NOB CAES .................................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI
GALERIUS
RIC VI, Londinium, Group I (ii), Class II issue, No. 15




MAXIMIANVS NOB CAES .................................. GENIO POPV -- LI ROMANI
GALERIUS
RIC VI, Londinium, Group I (ii), Class II issue, No. 15

.......... it seems to me that the "long ribbon end draped on the portrait neck" is a recurring feature on Lugdanese (and other Continental Mint?) coins during this period. But maybe not -- I haven't studied this to any great extent.

James

[leetoone]

CNG Electronic Auction 215 Lot #617

Anyone here get this lot? I was outbid but I was sure the lower right coin was a laureate bust with London style inscription. Anyone able to confirm or deny?